Learning Scales and Modes - seperately or all based off major

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Hi folks, i'm going back to basics in an attempt to dial in years of mis-learned and forgotten theory!

I think i understand most of the basic theory, my question is more aboout the approach to learning/memorizing them with respect to the guitar.

For example, i think i've got my major scale shapes fairly well dialled in, so for a given root note, i can find the appropriate scale shapes but i'd like to start progressing a bit further - modes for example.

So my question(s) is:
  1. Do you learn the shapes and change the root note? So if i'm playing in G Dorian, i play the F Major scale shapes but change the position of the root note in the shapes to be G?
  2. Do you learn entirely different shapes for each mode? For example as implied by this article: https://www.guitarworld.com/lessons/jazz-guitar-corner-learn-all-seven-major-modes-easy-way
  3. Am i missing the point here?  =)

I guess what i'm getting at is, everythings based on the major scale, so do we learn the major scale to death and learn to adapt it:
  • change the root note - gives us the modes/natural minor
  • know the intervals - allows us to drop the 4th/7th for pentatonic and flatten the 3rd for blues
Or do most people just learn these things as seperate entities?

Thanks!
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  • I usually do it by intervals, all major modes have the major 3rd and 7th. Minors have the flattened 3rd's and 7th's. 

    Then think of dorian/aeolian as the minor pentatonic but adjust the 6th. Both have a 2nd.

    Also important to jam to a backing track to get the sound of the notes you play against some harmony. That way the note has value within a harmonic framework.
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  • I usually do it by intervals, all major modes have the major 3rd and 7th. Minors have the flattened 3rd's and 7th's. 

    Then think of dorian/aeolian as the minor pentatonic but adjust the 6th. Both have a 2nd.

    Also important to jam to a backing track to get the sound of the notes you play against some harmony. That way the note has value within a harmonic framework.
    Ah right ok, so you have the major scale memorized by interval (so you can pull the 5th or 6th or whatever out of a shape) and then you know to flatten a particular interval to get the mode you want?

    So you would recommend i focus on making sure i know which interval is where in each shape?

    Thanks for your reply - very helpful
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  • That's how I think of it anyway, there's different ways people learn. For me its trying to break out of box shapes in one position and try to open up the fretboard. I know where all my root notes are then and can jump from different positions regardless of what mode I'm playing. There's specific distances between frets for say major 3rds and 7ths.
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  • That's how I think of it anyway, there's different ways people learn. For me its trying to break out of box shapes in one position and try to open up the fretboard. I know where all my root notes are then and can jump from different positions regardless of what mode I'm playing. There's specific distances between frets for say major 3rds and 7ths.
    Yeah so like a Major 5th being 2 frets up and 1 string down (except G). Got you.

    And on top of the intervals, at any given moment, do you also know which actual note you are playing or moving to?
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  • Depends on the harmony, say if the chords are 7ths I try to highlight that interval in my soloing. Or if there's a particular chord with that interval in the mode say a #4 for the lydian mode I will try to go to that note in my phrase.
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    Every Major scale mode has a distinct note that makes it sound unique.

    Play a Dorian mode, can you hear the note that makes it sound unique?

    Play a Lydian Mode, can you hear the note that makes it sound unique?

    Play a Phrygian Mode, can you hear the note that makes it sound unique?

    Play a Mixolydian mode, can you hear the note that makes it sound unique?

    Play a  Locrian mode, it has two distinct sounding notes.


    You need chords that complement the mode. so choose a chord voicing that contains the Mode's distinct notes and use it as a backing track.

    "B  Locrian" chord voicing B F A C, that's the 1st-5th-7th-9th(2nd) notes of the mode.


    One of my fav Dorian voicings at the 12th fret is D F B C, that's the 1st-3rd-6th-7th notes of the mode. But warning, it's a bit of a stretch in other positions.












    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    and there is only one pattern for all modes all over the neck from any starting point;  so you don’t need to learn multiple patterns, just know where each mode starts from in that pattern.  Much easier to learn 7 staring points than learn lots of scale patterns

    one pattern, 7 staring points.



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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited February 2020
    I usually do it by intervals, all major modes have the major 3rd and 7th. Minors have the flattened 3rd's and 7th's. 

    Apart from Mixolydian which has a major 3rd but a minor 7th


    i’d do it in this order:

    C major penta and C minor penta
    C major (ionian) scale
    C minor (aeolian) scale

    then the other 2 major modes - C lydian and C mixolydian

    then the other 2 minor modes - C dorian and C Phrygian

    Then C melodic minor (if you’re a jazzer or classical) and C harmonic minor and C phrygian dominant. 

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • I'm incapable of memorising anything, so I try and look at something like modes as many ways as possible to try to understand them. Another way of looking at it is:

    Start with Lydian:
    C D E F# G A B C - Lydian 

    Lower the fourth to get Ionian:
    C D E F G A B C

    Lower the Seventh to get Mixolydian: 
    C D E F G A Bb C

    Lower the third to get Dorian:
    C D Eb F G A Bb C

    Lower the Sixth to get Aeolian:
    C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
     
    Lower the Second to get Phrygian:
    C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C 

    Lower the Fifth to get Locrian:
    C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

    Lower the Root to get the Lydian of the next semitone down:
    Cb Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb

    Or rather:
    B C# D# E# F# G# A# B

    (Yes, I know Cb is enharmonic with B natural and E# is enharmonic with F)

    Notice that the modes move by circle of fifths and the note that changes moves by a third. 
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  • JAYJOJAYJO Frets: 1526
    I use formula.  Dorian b3 b7
                               Phrygian b3 b6 b7
                               Lydian #4.  
                               Mix. b7
                                Aeo. b2 b3. b6 b7
                                Loc b2 b3b b5 b6 b7
    So flatten all sharps of the major scales c to b except for f which has a b flat so you sharpen it. 
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  • I'd second what @Lestratcaster and @Grangousier say, that's the approach I've taken. Key thing is hearing them as unique collections of notes, if you can hear it then you can use it to improvise with.  (Also why I try to sing the modes as I play them)
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    This can get very personal because we all have our own approaches. That’s where a good teacher comes in. He/she can help sequence your learning, rather than “we’re now going to work our way through all of the modes”.

    In my teens I started on the scales road, but then jumped to note colours. A lot of the music I encountered was either major or minor, and if not then used other notes for effect rather than as part of some alien scale. Some of those other notes were even non-scalar.

    I started with the minor (Aeolian) scale, somehow bypassing the pentatonic. Then the Dorian, discovering difference that the b6 makes. Then the major and Mixolydian. I find that Dorian and Mixolydian sit well together, particularly where a lot of blues playing uses microtonal bends between the minor and major thirds. The first of the blue notes. The two remaining scale notes, b5 and b9, I learned by the feel and colour they add to the major and minor scales.

    That’s probably why I’ve never gained any value from modes.

    So, to answer @Amblik’s question. My personal answer is 3. In my world view modes are a useful academic theory that’s easy to teach and assess by examination. But it’s only that. I’d much rather learn the major and minor scales for one particular key. It doesn’t matter which key. It doesn’t matter which minor scale. Once you’ve done that you can move it around the fret board to different keys. Then learn what effect the “other” notes have.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited February 2020
    Roland said:
    This can get very personal because we all have our own approaches. That’s where a good teacher comes in. He/she can help sequence your learning, rather than “we’re now going to work our way through all of the modes”.

    This, but I'd add that it is good to learn things multiple ways- it fills in the gaps.

    I advocate starting with a pitch axis approach- group the major and minor modes separately.
    Learn Lydian, Mixolydian as variations of the major scale.
    Learn Dorian, Phrygian and Locrian as variations of the Natural Minor or Aeolian.

    Then learn them as modes of C major and take them through the flat and sharp keys, at least to 3 sharps and flats, but ideally all of them.
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    Many years ago, I used to think in just Major for every mode, until I had a lesson from Mike Walker. He showed how they can be utilized and not just in modal based songs. They can be used to create modal interchange, playing one mode over another and reharmonising songs.
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    GuyBoden said:
    Many years ago, I used to think in just Major for every mode, until I had a lesson from Mike Walker. He showed how they can be utilized and not just in modal based songs. They can be used to create modal interchange, playing one mode over another and reharmonising songs.
    I’m a big advocate of Mike’s methodology to learning the fretboard and music. It changed things in a big way for me, and I know this to be true for countless other guitarists/instrumentalists too. 
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  • Mike Walker is an incredible tutor. Had a huge influence on me for sure, everyone should go see him at least once!
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    Brad said:
    GuyBoden said:
    Many years ago, I used to think in just Major for every mode, until I had a lesson from Mike Walker. He showed how they can be utilized and not just in modal based songs. They can be used to create modal interchange, playing one mode over another and reharmonising songs.
    I’m a big advocate of Mike’s methodology to learning the fretboard and music. It changed things in a big way for me, and I know this to be true for countless other guitarists/instrumentalists too. 
    Is Mike walker still doing his online one ...he didn't seem to be updating much last time I looked but might be better now ?
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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    Barney said:
    Brad said:
    GuyBoden said:
    Many years ago, I used to think in just Major for every mode, until I had a lesson from Mike Walker. He showed how they can be utilized and not just in modal based songs. They can be used to create modal interchange, playing one mode over another and reharmonising songs.
    I’m a big advocate of Mike’s methodology to learning the fretboard and music. It changed things in a big way for me, and I know this to be true for countless other guitarists/instrumentalists too. 
    Is Mike walker still doing his online one ...he didn't seem to be updating much last time I looked but might be better now ?
    Not too sure, been quite a while since I last spoke to him. My understanding is that it had to go on the back burner due to other commitments...
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  • Update from Mike Walker for anyone interested...

    https://facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156518878321642&id=638746641
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733

    In the last 10+ years or so, I've stopped thinking of modes being related to the Major, I think of them as independent scales, but it took a while, so you can't rush these things.

    For example, Dorian, I don't think of it as a Major scale with 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7. I think 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 of the Dorian scale, that's how I see them and how I write them.

    I see the Major scale as an Ionian scale, it's just another scale/mode.
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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