Theory question on seventh chords

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RockerRocker Frets: 4947
Is it correct to say that a (dominant) seventh chord is a major or minor chord with a minor third (4 semitones including the last note) added. Thanks. 
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited March 2020
    No. A dominant 7th chord is a major triad with a minor 7th on top.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Major  7th        : 3rd  plus Major 7th ( as per notes in the Major Scale).
    Dominant 7th   :  3rd plus flat 7th.
    Minor 7th          : flat 3rd (minor third) plus flat 7th. 
    Minor 7b5         : flat 3rd, flat 5th, flat 7th.
    Diminished 7th : flat 3rd, flat 5th, double flat 7th.
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  • Major chord (with a major 3rd) with a flat (minor) 7th. The flat 7 interval is 2 below the root note of the key you're playing in.
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4947
    Thanks guys for the detailed replies.  When I first read them, I did not understand but having thought about it some more, I see what you are saying.  And I understand a little more.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • sweepysweepy Frets: 4159
    edited March 2020
    Good way to hear sevenths is to play George Harrison’s Something, C maj CMaj7 then C7 with descending C B and Bb on the G string 
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    All the 2 step intervals in chords are a minor or major 3rd above the previous step
     (for example a major chord consists of a root, a Major 3rd, and a minor 3rd above that; a minor chord is a root, a Minor 3rd and a Major 3rd above that)

    So a Dom 7 chord is in fact a major or minor triad with a minor 3rd on top of the 5th.

    C7 is  C E G and Bb.   Bb is a minor 3rd above above the G

    This was the biggest revelation in guitar theory I ever came across, and my rhythm playing leaped forwards multiple steps purely as a result of knowing this (in combination with knowing where a minor or major 3rd is for any note on the fretboard)

    so, the OP is indeed correct 
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  • PhiltrePhiltre Frets: 4164
    edited March 2020
    Good grief, how to over-complicate things.

    1 - 3 - 5 - b7

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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited March 2020
    sev112 said:


    So a Dom 7 chord is in fact a major or minor triad with a minor 3rd on top of the 5th.

    so, the OP is indeed correct 
    Sorry, that’s not quite right. A dom7 doesn’t have a minor triad, only a major triad. 

    A minor triad with a minor 7th on top is a m7 chord not a dom7 chord. Cheers. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • greejngreejn Frets: 127
    I'm with Philtre. G7 is a good example: a G chord with an F note added, F being the flat 7 interval counting from G...All dominant chords work the same way. Of course, it's easier to count down from 8!!
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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 4722
    Rocker said:
    Is it correct to say that a (dominant) seventh chord is a major or minor chord with a minor third (4 semitones including the last note) added. Thanks. 
    Yes, but that's not how I'd say it. I wouldn't use the minor third interval to describe how you find the dominant seventh note. 

    I'd say it like Philtre. 

    I don't like the concept of describing minor chords using the notes of the major scale. I'd say the notes of a minor 7th chord were 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 from the natural minor scale, not 1 - b3 - 5 - b7 from the major scale. 
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  • PhiltrePhiltre Frets: 4164
    Generally if you're describing intervals the context is from one given note (in this case, the root). So, with C7 you'd have a root note (C), a major third (E), a fifth (G) and a flattened 7th (Bb). You can say that the interval between G and Bb is a minor third, because it is, but in the context of describing a C7 chord it doesn't help. You could also say that there are 3 semitones between G and Bb. But it's just a C major chord (C-E-G) with an added flat 7th (Bb). Or the best way to think about it is this - it's a C chord with added pinky.
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    viz said:
    sev112 said:


    So a Dom 7 chord is in fact a major or minor triad with a minor 3rd on top of the 5th.

    so, the OP is indeed correct 
    Sorry, that’s not quite right. A dom7 doesn’t have a minor triad, only a major triad. 

    A minor triad with a minor 7th on top is a m7 chord not a dom7 chord. Cheers. 
    Yes of course you’re correct I was multi tasking :)  

    The minor 3rd on top of the 5th still stands though
    thanks for spotting


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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    Philtre said:
    Generally if you're describing intervals the context is from one given note (in this case, the root). So, with C7 you'd have a root note (C), a major third (E), a fifth (G) and a flattened 7th (Bb). You can say that the interval between G and Bb is a minor third, because it is, but in the context of describing a C7 chord it doesn't help. You could also say that there are 3 semitones between G and Bb. But it's just a C major chord (C-E-G) with an added flat 7th (Bb). Or the best way to think about it is this - it's a C chord with added pinky.
    Yep , correct or course
    but then we need to transfer all that to a fretboard,

     I at least find building chords easier by working in 3rd intervals cos that’s a lot less to think about :) for me at least 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited March 2020
    sev112 said:
    Philtre said:
    Generally if you're describing intervals the context is from one given note (in this case, the root). So, with C7 you'd have a root note (C), a major third (E), a fifth (G) and a flattened 7th (Bb). You can say that the interval between G and Bb is a minor third, because it is, but in the context of describing a C7 chord it doesn't help. You could also say that there are 3 semitones between G and Bb. But it's just a C major chord (C-E-G) with an added flat 7th (Bb). Or the best way to think about it is this - it's a C chord with added pinky.
    Yep , correct or course
    but then we need to transfer all that to a fretboard,

     I at least find building chords easier by working in 3rd intervals cos that’s a lot less to think about for me at least 
    I honestly don’t think you should. Imo you should think of all intervals from the tonic, first and foremost. And then of course when you’re really secure you can do what you want. 

    So the 3rd is either major or minor - major in the case of a dom7 chord, so 4 frets up; then the 5th is one string up, 2 frets up - like a power chord; and the (minor) 7th is the same fret as the tonic, but 2 strings up. 

    After that you can worry about the internal intervals between the 3rd and 5th, and between the 5th and 7th. 


    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    I think we do the same, but come about it different ways :) 
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  • sixwheeltyrrelsixwheeltyrrel Frets: 186
    edited March 2020
    Rocker said:
    Is it correct to say that a (dominant) seventh chord is a major or minor chord with a minor third (4 semitones including the last note) added. Thanks. 
    It's not a seventh chord at all. It's a seven (major triad plus flattened/minor 7th) chord and is only dominant in relation to the next chord/note. 

    E7 is a dominant to A major (something), as is F#7 to B major. 

    This is an intervalic mainstay of rock, blues and an incalculable number of 'pop'  songs. 

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  • HAL9000HAL9000 Frets: 9551
    edited March 2020
    E7 is a dominant to A major (something), as is F#7 to B major. 

    This is what I've always understood a dominant 7th to mean - the chord is based on the 5th note of key.

    I play guitar because I enjoy it rather than because I’m any good at it
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  • Yes I'm using the term dominant in that sense which arguably isn't correct here. 

    G7 is a dominant 7th chord or even a major minor seventh for maximum confusion. As is the interval G to F a dominant seventh. It's just that no one (IME) refers to them that way. I've found it to almost always be used in the subdominant, tonic context. 
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  • sweepysweepy Frets: 4159
    It’s handy to know the theory about the chords but equally you need to “hear” the chord and identify its flavour
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    sweepy said:
    It’s handy to know the theory about the chords but equally you need to “hear” the chord and identify its flavour
    Completely and utterly totally! Theory isn’t maths, it’s music!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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