Re:Coronavirus - Is D. Trump the only sane person on the planet?

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TedTed Frets: 102
It sounds really cold but my understanding is that the virus only really kills the elderly and those with serious pre-existing health conditions. 

This will be sad, but in terms of long term economic damage the effect may not be that bad, even if the whole human race is eventually infected.

In fact President Trump has said the cure(of basically shutting down economic activity) may be worse than the actual disease.

I understand that the UK government is seeking to slow the spread of the virus in order that the NHS is not overwhelmed, and has to turn away people who are dying. Whilst this is obviously politically unpalatable, it may be that Donald, with his unique business and economic insight, is correct in saying that things should open soon.

PS I think I have had the virus a couple of weeks ago, I have taken the responsible atitude and avoided all contact with the elderly but how long can this go on for?
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  • Good luck with this thread.
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  • revsorgrevsorg Frets: 720
    edited March 26
    I often feel at odds with the prevailing attitudes on this forum, but personally I prefer that the people who I love be not dead.
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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 5885
    In before the shit storm, thread nuke, cooler suspensions and ban hammer.

    A BBC radio programme earlier this week - possibly More Or Less - suggested that the overall death statistics for 2020 will probably be as anticipated but that COVID-19 will cause a good proportion of them to occur all at once rather than be distributed throughout the year.

    The sagacity or otherwise of Trump’s opinion depends on what value one places on human life. He seems to use a sliding scale, determined by skin pigmentation and money.
    Be seeing you.
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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 5885
    This thread title appears to have duplicated itself.  :o
    Be seeing you.
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  • StratavariousStratavarious Frets: 151
    edited March 26
    This thread title appears to have duplicated itself.  o
    It’s gone viral.
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  • maxrossellmaxrossell Frets: 834
    As someone with not one but two pre-existing health conditions, I'm not a huge fan of the "let 'em die, money's more important than people" rationale.

    FYI the people who are right now pushing for an earliest possible return to status quo are, typically, people's whose chief concern is that if people are at home instead of at work, they're harder to exploit.

    Also, Trump's only ever been correct by accident. In this case however he is on the wrong side of decency and although I'm sure he won't be punished for it, it's likely innocent people will be.

    But I guess the question really is, is it more important to you that your parents survive this, or that you not lose your job?

    Also PS if you suspected you had the virus the responsible attitude was to avoid contact with everyone. I suspect your misunderstanding there informs your larger confusion over whether the bodies of the sick and the old should be used to prop up the economy.
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  • TedTed Frets: 102
    As someone with not one but two pre-existing health conditions, I'm not a huge fan of the "let 'em die, money's more important than people" rationale.

    FYI the people who are right now pushing for an earliest possible return to status quo are, typically, people's whose chief concern is that if people are at home instead of at work, they're harder to exploit.

    Also, Trump's only ever been correct by accident. In this case however he is on the wrong side of decency and although I'm sure he won't be punished for it, it's likely innocent people will be.

    But I guess the question really is, is it more important to you that your parents survive this, or that you not lose your job?

    Also PS if you suspected you had the virus the responsible attitude was to avoid contact with everyone. I suspect your misunderstanding there informs your larger confusion over whether the bodies of the sick and the old should be used to prop up the economy.
    Ok part of me was playing devil's advocate. I can't imagine what it would be like to told that I would have to die because it was economically beneficial.

    But re the isolation policy there may be an arguement that the authorities have got it the wrong way round - maybe it is just the vulnerable who should remain in isolation(with the appropriate support/deliveries etc).

    re the virus, I appreciate it can be very dangerous, but I am not a superhuman specimen myself(40's, heavy smoker), and I found it be like having flu with an itchy throat, it was only bad for a day or so.
    I did remain in total isolation indoors for five days afterwards but then had to go out for food and to stop going stir crazy
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  • maxrossellmaxrossell Frets: 834
    Ted said:
    As someone with not one but two pre-existing health conditions, I'm not a huge fan of the "let 'em die, money's more important than people" rationale.

    FYI the people who are right now pushing for an earliest possible return to status quo are, typically, people's whose chief concern is that if people are at home instead of at work, they're harder to exploit.

    Also, Trump's only ever been correct by accident. In this case however he is on the wrong side of decency and although I'm sure he won't be punished for it, it's likely innocent people will be.

    But I guess the question really is, is it more important to you that your parents survive this, or that you not lose your job?

    Also PS if you suspected you had the virus the responsible attitude was to avoid contact with everyone. I suspect your misunderstanding there informs your larger confusion over whether the bodies of the sick and the old should be used to prop up the economy.
    Ok part of me was playing devil's advocate. I can't imagine what it would be like to told that I would have to die because it was economically beneficial.

    But re the isolation policy there may be an arguement that the authorities have got it the wrong way round - maybe it is just the vulnerable who should remain in isolation(with the appropriate support/deliveries etc).

    re the virus, I appreciate it can be very dangerous, but I am not a superhuman specimen myself(40's, heavy smoker), and I found it be like having flu with an itchy throat, it was only bad for a day or so.
    I did remain in total isolation indoors for five days afterwards but then had to go out for food and to stop going stir crazy
    Unfortunately it's not as simple as locking up grandma while the rest of us get on with it. The more the rest of us get on with it the higher the viral load per heard of population, making it increasingly likely that grandma will catch it no matter how lonely she gets.

    Also it's nice that you didn't suffer from Covid when you got it. However if I may draw a quick parallel, I was only in hospital for a year when I got leukemia, and after a bone marrow graft I went into remission and have been fine since. However all of the friends I made there, many of whom were younger and fitter than me when they got sick, are now dead. Not fair, is it? No, but then life isn't.

    This is the danger with this, you see. All of your arguments are based on shifting the burden to a smaller group, which seems like a good idea if you're not a member of that group, but this in fact entails significantly increasing the risk for the smaller group while not actually benefiting anyone. And that's why when Trump speaks, sane people change the channel.
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  • Jeez...has @Emp_Fab got another account??
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  • phil_bphil_b Frets: 657
    The problem is nobody knows

    I would prefer the government takes action to stave of an impending disaster only to find out later the situation was less serious than first feared than to take no action and hope for the best only to find out later millions of people will die
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  • maxrossellmaxrossell Frets: 834
    phil_b said:
    The problem is nobody knows

    I would prefer the government takes action to stave of an impending disaster only to find out later the situation was less serious than first feared than to take no action and hope for the best only to find out later millions of people will die
    This. I'd sooner a million unemployed, even if I was one of them, than a million dead.

    I'm still not comfortable with this, tbh:

    "Justifications for being outside, already announced by Boris Johnson, include exercising once a day, buying essentials such as food and medicine, caring duties and going to work if it is not possible to work from home. Gatherings of more than two people are banned."

    It's still the glaring discrepancy. "Leave home only to do the things that you would die if you didn't. Oh, and also to make sure those widescreen TVs get dispatched on time". A responsible government would by now have closed all but essential business. Food, health, infrastructure. Make double-glazing? Sorry pal but you're on your couch for the next few weeks. Expecting that people whose jobs can't be done remotely should still clock in in the midst of a pandemic is the position of a system where people value money more than human life.
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  • prowlaprowla Frets: 2286
    Ted said:
    It sounds really cold but my understanding is that the virus only really kills the elderly and those with serious pre-existing health conditions. 

    This will be sad, but in terms of long term economic damage the effect may not be that bad, even if the whole human race is eventually infected.

    In fact President Trump has said the cure(of basically shutting down economic activity) may be worse than the actual disease.

    I understand that the UK government is seeking to slow the spread of the virus in order that the NHS is not overwhelmed, and has to turn away people who are dying. Whilst this is obviously politically unpalatable, it may be that Donald, with his unique business and economic insight, is correct in saying that things should open soon.

    PS I think I have had the virus a couple of weeks ago, I have taken the responsible atitude and avoided all contact with the elderly but how long can this go on for?

    My understanding is that your understanding is incorrect.

    Regardless of the moral position, the idea of carts going along the road with a hunchback calling "Bring out yer dead!" is probably not the right model for a modern liberal democracy.

    For sure the economic impact will be huge and we are in a de-facto Recession right now (the official definition is 6 months of non-growth and we've been less than 1), but there will likely be a post-war style period of growth when we get out of it.

    As for Trump, I think his position is not dissimilar to the story of King Canute.
    I'm trying to think but nothing's happening!
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 20284
    Threads merged and moved to correct forum. 

    Oh, and a quick warning - given that this thread’s potential.. play nicely or it will just disappear
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  • Ted said:
    As someone with not one but two pre-existing health conditions, I'm not a huge fan of the "let 'em die, money's more important than people" rationale.

    FYI the people who are right now pushing for an earliest possible return to status quo are, typically, people's whose chief concern is that if people are at home instead of at work, they're harder to exploit.

    Also, Trump's only ever been correct by accident. In this case however he is on the wrong side of decency and although I'm sure he won't be punished for it, it's likely innocent people will be.

    But I guess the question really is, is it more important to you that your parents survive this, or that you not lose your job?

    Also PS if you suspected you had the virus the responsible attitude was to avoid contact with everyone. I suspect your misunderstanding there informs your larger confusion over whether the bodies of the sick and the old should be used to prop up the economy.
    Ok part of me was playing devil's advocate. I can't imagine what it would be like to told that I would have to die because it was economically beneficial.

    But re the isolation policy there may be an arguement that the authorities have got it the wrong way round - maybe it is just the vulnerable who should remain in isolation(with the appropriate support/deliveries etc).

    re the virus, I appreciate it can be very dangerous, but I am not a superhuman specimen myself(40's, heavy smoker), and I found it be like having flu with an itchy throat, it was only bad for a day or so.
    I did remain in total isolation indoors for five days afterwards but then had to go out for food and to stop going stir crazy
    Were you tested for covid 19?
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  • GrangousierGrangousier Frets: 839

    It's still the glaring discrepancy. "Leave home only to do the things that you would die if you didn't. Oh, and also to make sure those widescreen TVs get dispatched on time". A responsible government would by now have closed all but essential business.
    I think the problem was to find a rule that was wide-ranging and simple enough that people could internalise and follow it. If a family are going to be locked up all day and the TV breaks, it probably does look essential to them. More to the point, if the fridge breaks, that really is important for surviving the next few weeks. And if fridges, then why not TVs? Or printer cartridges for the working-from-home? A delivery isn't a single transaction, but a part of a system of transactions that need to be kept running, which, most of the time, means not life-or-death, in order that the system is in place for the life-or-death. 

    tldr; People who make deliveries are a lot more important than previously thought. 
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  • Winny_PoohWinny_Pooh Frets: 4262

    It's still the glaring discrepancy. "Leave home only to do the things that you would die if you didn't. Oh, and also to make sure those widescreen TVs get dispatched on time". A responsible government would by now have closed all but essential business.
    I think the problem was to find a rule that was wide-ranging and simple enough that people could internalise and follow it. If a family are going to be locked up all day and the TV breaks, it probably does look essential to them. More to the point, if the fridge breaks, that really is important for surviving the next few weeks. And if fridges, then why not TVs? Or printer cartridges for the working-from-home? A delivery isn't a single transaction, but a part of a system of transactions that need to be kept running, which, most of the time, means not life-or-death, in order that the system is in place for the life-or-death. 

    tldr; People who make deliveries are a lot more important than previously thought. 
    Until it becomes clear in the coming months that robots don't get sick and more effort is justified to bring them to market to deliver "essential" services such as delivery driving.

    Even Ocado's warehouse is run by robots.



    We can be worried about this short term unemployment due to CV, but really, we're on an overstuffed planet and many of us are replaceable over the coming years. 
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 3513
    Ted said:

    President Trump has said the cure(of basically shutting down economic activity) may be worse than the actual disease.
    Trump evaluates most things in terms of dollars, popularity ratings and share prices. One of the potential outcomes of a pandemic is the breakdown of supply chains leading to social disorder. Hence the dash for ammunition last week.
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  • maxrossellmaxrossell Frets: 834

    It's still the glaring discrepancy. "Leave home only to do the things that you would die if you didn't. Oh, and also to make sure those widescreen TVs get dispatched on time". A responsible government would by now have closed all but essential business.
    I think the problem was to find a rule that was wide-ranging and simple enough that people could internalise and follow it. If a family are going to be locked up all day and the TV breaks, it probably does look essential to them. More to the point, if the fridge breaks, that really is important for surviving the next few weeks. And if fridges, then why not TVs? Or printer cartridges for the working-from-home? A delivery isn't a single transaction, but a part of a system of transactions that need to be kept running, which, most of the time, means not life-or-death, in order that the system is in place for the life-or-death. 

    tldr; People who make deliveries are a lot more important than previously thought. 
    Hence the need to identify key or essential jobs/industries. Granted the guy who sends out refrigerators is key, but the guy who sends out TVs is not, no matter how much of an emergency a broken TV might seem to a quarantined family. On this forum there are a few people who work by their own estimation expendable jobs are yet are being forced to attend.

    All this is because rather than setting out clear, complete guidelines for who's currently more valuable to society at home rather than on the tube, they've left it so vague that even the guys who pack fidget-spinners and novelty mugs are expected to work their shifts. Is this deliberate? It's likely, given the prospect of paying absent staff 80% of their wage from public coffers, but either we accept the necessity to keep indoors all but the actually indispensable, or we don't.
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  • CHRISB50CHRISB50 Frets: 2340
    Good luck with this thread.
    Lol. This ^^

    I can't help about the shape I'm in, I can't sing I ain't pretty and my legs are thin

    But don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to

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  • RolandRoland Frets: 3513

    Is this deliberate?
    No, it’s because people are having to take decisions quickly, and don’t have the luxury of passing it around the civil service for a few weeks to have all of the details considered.
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  • phil_bphil_b Frets: 657
    edited March 26
    If you bet on black and it comes up black this does not mean you were right it just means you were lucky

    Except Trump is not gambling with his own money just people's lives
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  • maxrossellmaxrossell Frets: 834

    It's still the glaring discrepancy. "Leave home only to do the things that you would die if you didn't. Oh, and also to make sure those widescreen TVs get dispatched on time". A responsible government would by now have closed all but essential business.
    I think the problem was to find a rule that was wide-ranging and simple enough that people could internalise and follow it. If a family are going to be locked up all day and the TV breaks, it probably does look essential to them. More to the point, if the fridge breaks, that really is important for surviving the next few weeks. And if fridges, then why not TVs? Or printer cartridges for the working-from-home? A delivery isn't a single transaction, but a part of a system of transactions that need to be kept running, which, most of the time, means not life-or-death, in order that the system is in place for the life-or-death. 

    tldr; People who make deliveries are a lot more important than previously thought. 
    Until it becomes clear in the coming months that robots don't get sick and more effort is justified to bring them to market to deliver "essential" services such as delivery driving.

    Even Ocado's warehouse is run by robots.



    We can be worried about this short term unemployment due to CV, but really, we're on an overstuffed planet and many of us are replaceable over the coming years. 
    If you watch old "tomorrow's world"-style clips from roughly the 50s to the 80s, a common theme was the idea that once we have sufficiently advanced robotics everyone could expect to be leaving the donkey-work to our tin-headed friends while kicking back on a two-day week.

    If you needed an argument for the failure of capitalism to properly benefit society equitably, witness the fact that the savings and efficiencies achieved through the implemented advances in robotics have instead been sucked up into the pockets of the millionaire class, while the global working classes have either seen their wages frozen to keep them below the cost of robotic replacements, or simply been laid off.

    A lot of people smirk at the idea advanced by some left-wing groups currently that we should be aiming for a three-day week, but that's to forget that not so long ago people would slap their thighs with mirth at the idea of a five-day week.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 45848
    prowla said:

    As for Trump, I think his position is not dissimilar to the story of King Canute.
    Except that the truth - if it isn’t purely a myth - of the Canute story is that he was not the fool it seems... he was a wise king who did it to show his subjects the limits of royal power. I don’t think Trump could ever achieve that level of self-awareness.

    It’s not as simple as just allowing those who will die to die anyway. The two problems of the do-nothing approach are that the death rate of around 1% from Covid-19 only applies if the hospitals can treat the roughly 15% who get seriously ill, and that once the hospitals are full, not only will most of them die, anyone with any other non-Covid-19 life-threatening condition - from accidents as well as illness - who would normally have survived will then also probably die. The only way of avoiding both problems is to slow the transmission rate down so the hospitals can cope.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 17461
    Ted said:

    Is D. Trump the only sane person on the planet?


    That's a rhetorical question, right??
    During the Covid19 period, we're running a "phone a friend" facility.  Just to hear a voice, keep in touch, etc. , using "JitSi".
    There's a Jitsi iOS/Android App, or you can connect from a browser.

    https://meet.jit.si/theFretBoard  |    pw: theFB  |    0121 468 3154  (pin 2491 5627 21#)   |  10:00 and 20:00 daily.
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  • maxrossellmaxrossell Frets: 834
    Roland said:

    Is this deliberate?
    No, it’s because people are having to take decisions quickly, and don’t have the luxury of passing it around the civil service for a few weeks to have all of the details considered.
    I'm not sure it's a coincidence that this specific fudge, or omission, or whatever we might call it, results in keeping as many people going to work as possible, irrespective of the essentialness of their job, in a situation where we are otherwise now having the police force people back indoors.
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  • TedTed Frets: 102
    I think the Uk government is in a difficult position. 

    They can't force everyone to isolate for however months it takes to find a vaccine. 

    However they do need to slow the infection rate to spread the hospital cases. Because footage of scores of people dying n corridors might kill Boris politically.

    I guess what I like about Trump's handling of the crisis is his outrageous honesty.

    Yes he's a scumbag but at least he does not hide it.



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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 9526

    Regardless of what he said he has now signed a $2 trillion aid bill, giving the USA increased state health funding, unemployment aid for the self employed,etc. 


    Sleep. That’s where I’m a Viking. 
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 13660
    Ted said:
    I think the Uk government is in a difficult position. 

    They can't force everyone to isolate for however months it takes to find a vaccine. 

    However they do need to slow the infection rate to spread the hospital cases. Because footage of scores of people dying n corridors might kill Boris politically.

    I guess what I like about Trump's handling of the crisis is his outrageous honesty.

    Yes he's a scumbag but at least he does not hide it.

    Honestly I don't even think Trump realises he's a dick. I think he believes everyone feels like he does and anyone who disagrees is a bad guy who is just against him out of spite. 
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