Attenuators

billando

I play in a 5 piece band with 2 guitarists and a bass. The other guitarist never uses an attenuator. I have quite a few amps and attenuators and i like to experiment. I have found that playing on my own an attenuator is a great tool....def gets power stage working...but the more i attenuate the more attack gets lost in a band situation. I have one of the most expensive the fryette power station (i know its a reamper) and an older one marshall power brake....tbh with most amps i prefer the power brake but thats my opinion. More than 2 clicks with the attenuator loses so much attack it becomes pointless if using a master volume amp. I use mostly a jcm 800 or 900 and have to eq the treble way down and the mids and bass way up to get it right in a band context. Is this the consensus with everybody else or am i missing something with the attenuators? 

monquixote

They are good if you want to knock a loud amp back a bit and a great tool for quieter gigs.

People who want to do the "Brian May AC30 you can whisper over" are usually disappointed.

ICBM

Bear in mind that every 3dB click down is like halving the power of the amp. Only three clicks on the Powerbrake is -9dB, one-eighth of the power, or the same as turning your 100W amp into a 12W amp, so at normal band volume you'll be pushing the power stage into compression and it will kill the dynamics.

Try just 1 or 2 clicks down and dial the amp in for that. Also, JCM800s and 900s are very bright amps so it's not surprising you need the bass and mid up high - I never run the bass anywhere other than full up on them, usually the mid at 6 or higher, and the treble and presence at 6 or lower - often a lot lower.

ecc83

Only one guitar amp maker (cough!) AFAIK has ever addressed this 'loss of dynamics' problem that afflicts power control.

The fairly complex (but remarkably reliable) circuitry controls G2 volts and bias and allows the initial attack to get through. In other words, even though you have a 100W amp set to 10W the first few mSecs of your pick hit ARE at 100W and then the control kicks in.

The amplifiers are not dreadfully expensive compared to those of comparable quality but have not as yet it seems taken the world quite by storm as might have been hoped?

But, what NO power control system can do is emulated the 'hormonal rush' obtained by being hit with a 100dB+ wave!

Dave.

gringopig

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billando

ICBM said:

Bear in mind that every 3dB click down is like halving the power of the amp. Only three clicks on the Powerbrake is -9dB, one-eighth of the power, or the same as turning your 100W amp into a 12W amp, so at normal band volume you'll be pushing the power stage into compression and it will kill the dynamics.

Try just 1 or 2 clicks down and dial the amp in for that. Also, JCM800s and 900s are very bright amps so it's not surprising you need the bass and mid up high - I never run the bass anywhere other than full up on them, usually the mid at 6 or higher, and the treble and presence at 6 or lower - often a lot lower.

Explain why pushing the 12w amp into compression kills the dynamics. I thought playing at or near full volume brings the best out of the amp.

ICBM

Because when you push a power amp into compression at its maximum power it cannot get any louder when you play harder.

It’s a myth that turning it right up always gives the best sound. If you want dynamics, it doesn’t.

ecc83

gringopig said:

ecc83 said:

Only one guitar amp maker (cough!) AFAIK has ever addressed this 'loss of dynamics' problem that afflicts power control.

The fairly complex (but remarkably reliable) circuitry controls G2 volts and bias and allows the initial attack to get through. In other words, even though you have a 100W amp set to 10W the first few mSecs of your pick hit ARE at 100W and then the control kicks in.

The amplifiers are not dreadfully expensive compared to those of comparable quality but have not as yet it seems taken the world quite by storm as might have been hoped?

But, what NO power control system can do is emulated the 'hormonal rush' obtained by being hit with a 100dB+ wave!

Dave.

Or the permanent damage to hearing. Exposure to damaging sound pressure levels are never a good thing and if the music doesn't give you a thrill, turning it up won't add anything.

Having control on the actual sound level coming out the speaker is a great thing. I have a Toneking Ironman II and a mini and they can't be bettered in my opinion.

The amplifiers naturally come wit all the warnings about protecting your hearing but what can you do if people want kit that can put out those levels? Nobody can legally use the top speed on most modern cars.

Dave.

billando

ICBM said:

Because when you push a power amp into compression at its maximum power it cannot get any louder when you play harder.

It’s a myth that turning it right up always gives the best sound. If you want dynamics, it doesn’t.

This would be the case in a master volume amp if both pre and power amp were maxed but not if pre was at say...half way right? What about non master amps like plexis? They dont get louder after maybe 7/10 they just compress so in ur opinion they should be kept below 7/10 to avoid power valve compression? Im sure lots of classic recordings are achieved by cranking the amp to get power amp overdrive so im not quite following you there. 

p90fool

billando said:

ICBM said:

Because when you push a power amp into compression at its maximum power it cannot get any louder when you play harder.

It’s a myth that turning it right up always gives the best sound. If you want dynamics, it doesn’t.

This would be the case in a master volume amp if both pre and power amp were maxed but not if pre was at say...half way right? What about non master amps like plexis? They dont get louder after maybe 7/10 they just compress so in ur opinion they should be kept below 7/10 to avoid power valve compression? Im sure lots of classic recordings are achieved by cranking the amp to get power amp overdrive so im not quite following you there. 

Of course, but if you're playing in regular band with another guitar player with a cranked-but-attenuated plexi you still have nowhere to go to step out over the mix if it's already flat out. 

Playing with cranked non-MV amps is an art in itself, and relies heavily on guitar volume use and good playing dynamics. Of course you can run them on 10/10, but you need that to be the absolute maximum you will need on any song in the set, and to have the guitar volume very nearly off for most song parts. 

ICBM

In a recording you can run the amp flat out and get it to sit perfectly in the mix with EQ and volume adjustments at the desk. You don’t have that ability when you’re playing live, unless you’re on a big stage with everything going through the PA and a soundman who can push you up for solos.

If you’re doing it all from the amp yourself, and you don’t have enough dynamics, attenuating less and turning the master volume down a bit will help. Set the EQ to wherever it sounds good, even if you have the controls at 10 or 0.

digitalkettle

p90fool said:

Of course, but if you're playing in regular band with another guitar player with a cranked-but-attenuated plexi you still have nowhere to go to step out over the mix if it's already flat out.

This is where the OP's Power Station can help: amp running into the PS...EP Booster in the PS's effects loop.

ecc83

ICBM said:

In a recording you can run the amp flat out and get it to sit perfectly in the mix with EQ and volume adjustments at the desk. You don’t have that ability when you’re playing live, unless you’re on a big stage with everything going through the PA and a soundman who can push you up for solos.

If you’re doing it all from the amp yourself, and you don’t have enough dynamics, attenuating less and turning the master volume down a bit will help. Set the EQ to wherever it sounds good, even if you have the controls at 10 or 0.

Yus, B's power control system won't help you in a solo boost situation*, it is designed to make lower power use sound better.

*It COULD if it was under MIDI control and it might be, never looked. Mind you, for centuries musicians 'boosted' solos by the rest of the band shutting TF Up!

Dave.

monquixote

ICBM said:

Because when you push a power amp into compression at its maximum power it cannot get any louder when you play harder.

It’s a myth that turning it right up always gives the best sound. If you want dynamics, it doesn’t.

I've played quite a few amps with all the controls on 10 with and without attenuation and they generally don't sound all that great.  Very mushy and lacking in dynamics.

Most amps sound best pushed a bit, but for my taste not all the way.

billando

Working the speakers worth a shout also? Last gig i used jcm 900 into a 1960a with g12t75 and at small gig volume it sounded alright but i likely wasnt working each speaker much....even with attenuating id still be working the speaker the same amount cos the volume would be the same. I wonder if for each speaker setup theres a certain volume where they come alive and contribute in a nice way to the tone....i have noticed that my vox ac15 with celestion blue seems to have this quality maybe cos its a 15w speaker being pushed.....amp is borderline not loud enough tho for some gigs.

ICBM

I thought we've been through that already .

If you really want to find out, disconnect three of the speakers in the cab, and run the amp with one click of attenuation - or set to Low power - that will put 50W (max) into a 75W speaker, which is into the range where the speaker is being driven hard enough for it to alter the tone and dynamics.

This is quite easy on a 1960 with the switching panel - disconnect the lower speaker on each side, set the cab to stereo, and then each input will give only the top speaker on each side, at 16 ohms. You might get some slightly odd phase effects from the undriven speakers at low volume, but at gig volume you probably won't notice.

(Or if you don't want to attenuate or use Low, turn off two power valves and set the amp to 8 ohms into one 16-ohm speaker.)

The Blue has unique characteristics when pushed hard, but you can't tell whether you're hearing the speaker or the amp with the AC15 since *both* are at the limit when it's fully cranked. The Vox/Blue combination has a magic to it which never quite applies when you use either of them with something else.

monquixote

billando said:

Working the speakers worth a shout also? Last gig i used jcm 900 into a 1960a with g12t75 and at small gig volume it sounded alright but i likely wasnt working each speaker much....even with attenuating id still be working the speaker the same amount cos the volume would be the same. I wonder if for each speaker setup theres a certain volume where they come alive and contribute in a nice way to the tone....i have noticed that my vox ac15 with celestion blue seems to have this quality maybe cos its a 15w speaker being pushed.....amp is borderline not loud enough tho for some gigs.

I think mostly it's just volume and the feedback loop between guitar and amp.

When I was playing with a modeller to PA and a silent stage it seemed really dead compared to a real amp. I did a gig where I couldn't use in ears so I had an amp right behind me just playing the modellers sound into the loop and suddenly it all felt very alive with lots of sustain etc.

Even in the AxeFX manual it says that you can't expect to get the best sound through headphones. It needs to be a speaker in the room with the guitar.

billando

ICBM have you had experience with a jcm 800 4010 50w? Mine has g1265 single speaker. At normal gig levels i get it to 3 at most....with power brake down 2 clicks it can get to master volume 6.....i do notice a difference using the power brake....u think its worth using the attenuator to get the volume up to 6 or if it was you would you prefer to keep it at 3 unattenuated? Preamp is at 3/4....not much gain on this amp...more acdc.

ICBM

Master volume on 6 is about where the power stage overdrive kicks in on those - if the preamp is up high - so if you want the power amp compression I would do that, with the attenuator. If you want maximum dynamics, MV on 3 and no Powerbrake. Try it with just one click too, it might be the best of both worlds...

There is another trick you can do with an attenuator if you only need one click, too - use it as a parallel dummy load. Set the Powerbrake to the same impedance as the speaker, and turn the knob to fully off - then connect it to the amp exactly as if it's a second speaker cab, with the amp impedance set appropriately. The attenuator will then absorb half the power, but it seems to have less of an effect on the tone this way.