Sweet spot on master volume amps

billandobillando Frets: 26
I hear alot that an amp sounds best "on verge of breakup" but does this apply to master volume amps too? On my jcm 900 going from 6.5 to 7 on the volume there is a big jump in volume and it gets thicker. Same thing on my jmp 2104 but between 4.5 and 5. I take it this is the valves running out of headroom. Volume being no issue would you set your amp volume just before this point, just after this point or louder still if you could compressing the valves even more?
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Comments

  • brooombrooom Frets: 1171
    I think it depends on several factors, like the amp topology (gain structure, equalization), how the output stage is setup (negative feedback loops and impedances), the type of master volume used (pre-phase inverter, PPIMV). Just today I commented on another thread that on my Marshall 4010 the master (which is pre phase inverter) makes the whole range of the  amp, even the clean sound tones, sound quite flat. The master needs to be above 5/6 for it to have any real dynamic range.

    So in my opinion this is the same for both master or non master volume amps. However I do find the clean tones, or tones you get before you get to the "verge of breakup" point that most people consider the sweet spot, to be livelier and more dynamic on amps that either don't have a master volume, or have one, but is is set high enough.
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  • billandobillando Frets: 26
    I have a 4010 too. Im not sure about pre phase inverter master volumes is this something you installed or will mine have this too? With mine i dont notice a big volume jump all of a sudden, its very linear. I do notice its got more character and fills out around volume 6 though. Practicing at band volume (around 2.5/10) on my own it sounded great but in a band context as you said its a bit sterile or flat....i need an attenuator down a couple of clicks to get to 6/10 and im trying to figure out which i prefer with my band. 
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  • brooombrooom Frets: 1171
    Yours has it too. This type of master volume works like that.

    By 2.5/10 I assume you mean 2.5 on the preamp and 10 on master? If so why don't you raise the pre a bit more and lower the master a bit more (without going too low).
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  • billandobillando Frets: 26
    No i meant the master was at 2.5 out of 10. I generally run the preamp at around 8. Its not a gainy amp...in fact it has less gain than any jcm 800 variant i have played. Nice though.
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  • brooombrooom Frets: 1171
    Yes for the amp to have dynamics the master really needs to be around 6 ish. You'll probably need to back down on the pre a bit. And maybe a pedal can help to add a bit of dirt at a controlled volume.

    They're great amps, not as much gain as I thought it would have I agree. But for me that's a good thing.
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  • billandobillando Frets: 26
    So do you think 6 on the master is the sweet spot or would you put it higher if you could? Ir do you think higher than that goes too mushy?
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  • brooombrooom Frets: 1171
    I haven't had the amp long enough to tell you that. As I got it just before a pandemic got started. I have played above 6 but only with an attenuator. I tend to like my amps on the cleaner side, but I like a broad dynamic range, usually on most (not all amps) volume above 7 is a a bit too much for me in terms of compression, gain and I find some amps start falling apart a bit if you go higher.

    Regarding the 4010 the master volume always limits the signal that hits your power stage and phase inverter, so I would probably try to set it right after whichever value you feel makes the amp bland sounding. And then adjust the pre amp gain to taste.

    At that point the amp might still be too loud, so you can probably get around that with pedals, attenuators or controlling you guitar volume (but still maybe not the gain you want). Just like a regular non master volume amp would.
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  • MichaelATMichaelAT Frets: 12
    On my 2550 Jubilee I also experience a sweet spot at round 6.5-7.5. Above it is too compressed and mushy. I always try to run it at 6.5 or a tad above.
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  • billandobillando Frets: 26
    Im finding lots of people say with master volumes it sounds better just after breakup but too mushy near 10 whereas alot of people who play non masters like to crank the volume. Is there a reason why a mv at 10 is much more "mushier" than a nmv? This is also dependant on the preamp setting of course.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    billando said:
    Im finding lots of people say with master volumes it sounds better just after breakup but too mushy near 10 whereas alot of people who play non masters like to crank the volume. Is there a reason why a mv at 10 is much more "mushier" than a nmv? This is also dependant on the preamp setting of course.
    Because in most cases a MV amp is not just a non-MV amp with a MV. They usually have a lot more gain, exactly so you can drive the preamp harder and create distortion without having to include the power-stage overdrive. If you then turn the MV up full as well you will get too much.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • billandobillando Frets: 26
    So if you put a pedal, say a fuzz pedal like a tonebender with some but not too much fuzz in it through an amp would it be optimal at edge of breakup? 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    billando said:
    So if you put a pedal, say a fuzz pedal like a tonebender with some but not too much fuzz in it through an amp would it be optimal at edge of breakup? 
    You're over-thinking it :).

    There are no rules really, try it and see what sounds best.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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