So ...... how hard is drum programming?

axisus

I want to do a cover version of an instrumental that I have been a massive fan of for the past 40 years (Excalibur by Pendragon). I transcribed the guitar parts, and I've mostly written out the keys (can't play them all yet though!). Bass I figure I could chug along with, but I'm lost with the drums. I have an electronic drum kit at home, but it is way beyond my most rudimentary of skills, and it just sounds very weak with me tippy tapping through. It needs some drive from the drumming.

I figure that drum programming is insanely hard, and you probably can't do it with free (mac) software. Does anyone have experience of drum programming? Am I right, is it insanely hard?

This is the song I want to tackle (youtube video but it's sound only):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j096LC8VoPI

Cirrus

I've been getting into it in quite a big way over the last few weeks.

I think there's two big considerations;

1; How good is the virtual instrument? I've been using BFD3 and it's amazing in terms of the quality of the articulations on offer, and the options to do "round robin" samples and automatically add variation to the strength of each hit to avoid the machine gun sound of hearing the exact same sample going off with military precision in fills etc. Another thing I really like are the room & ambient options, which I think are hugely important for giving the impression that the drums are a single instrument and not disjointed samples hanging in isolation.

2; Can you think like a drummer while you program the parts? This is key really. Things like not writing a part that would require 5 limbs to play. Programming in realistic dynamics within each grove; for example. the drummer might hit the snare harder on the 2 than the 4. Human imperfections mean that two close kick hits will never have the same strength. I play the drums for real so I know for example when due to my skill limitations I'd definitely have to pick which of two kick hits a 16th apart I'd hit harder at the expense of the other. Drummers often deliberately hit the backbeat late or early to push or pull in the groove. Hi hat and ride 16th notes usually follow a loud-quiet-loud-quiet pattern. Often they're not straight 16ths either, and on rolls the weaker hand is quite often more early or late. That sort of things makes or breaks it.

The disclaimer is that I'm still learning. But I think with decent samples, the result will be *exactly* as good as your programming and nobody will think twice - they'll just sound like good drums.

The TL:DR answer is that it's not insanely hard, but you could probably never stop improving things. I wrote in a simple drum part for a song in literally 10 minutes yesterday, Another with multiple time sig changes, complex tempo map etc took 2 hours and I could probably spend another 2 micro-adjusting the timing of each hit for a more human groove

octatonic

You have to be able to think like a drummer.
If you can doing that then it isn't that difficult usually.
If you can't then it is like trying to paint a house through the letterbox.

That song isn't going to be easy though, because of the time sig/meter changes, which are plentiful.
They all make music sense, nothing is gratuitously difficult for the sake of it but if you can't count that song from beginning to end then you won't have a hope in hell of being able to program drums for it.

This how I would do it- first map out all the time sig changes and tempo changes in your DAW using markers to delineate the sections.
Then place kick drums at the start of each bar and snares on the backbeat (usually the 3 but in odd times it might not be)
Then fill in a steady pulse of hihats.
Then crashes.
Then start on the fills.
Then articulations and section joiners, remove things you placed earlier on as section punctuations to match the recording.

The real difficulty with this track will be rubato and rallentando- even if you get it mapped out exactly with bars and beats it won't feel quite the same- the drummer, and therefore the whole band, are speeding up and slowing down in a really 'organic' way (I hate using that word but it applies here).

This track will be a lot of work for a very experienced person. 
The last third of this song is going to be very difficult to map out the way they are playing it.
Not trying to dissuade you- but it will take a time commitment.

I've never really listened to Pendragon- I'm impressed though with this.
Great players.

axisus

@Cirrus @octatonic ;
Thanks both, really helpful replies. Although I am working from home, I have way more spare time that usual so it seems like a good time to have a go at this. I'm gonna roll my sleeves up and see where I can get.

robinbowes

octatonic said:

You have to be able to think like a drummer.

Drummers can think???

octatonic

robinbowes said:

octatonic said:

You have to be able to think like a drummer.

Drummers can think???

LOL.

Although I do love it when guitarists say this sort of thing- especially when I can give them the sticks and say 'go on then, you do it'.
Watching them flail away at it is deeply amusing.

I play both instruments- IMHO drums are way harder.

robinbowes

octatonic said:

robinbowes said:

octatonic said:

You have to be able to think like a drummer.

Drummers can think???

LOL.

Although I do love it when guitarists say this sort of thing- especially when I can give them the sticks and say 'go on then, you do it'.
Watching them flail away at it is deeply amusing.

I play both instruments- IMHO drums are way harder.

Totally agree, but who doesn't love a good drummer joke

R.

Jalapeno

Calling @Clarky ;

PolarityMan

octatonic said:

Then place kick drums at the start of each bar and snares on the backbeat (usually the 3 but in odd times it might not be)

Ok so I haven't listened yet, but I really enjoy drum programming and have done a ton of it. So my comments are more on the general side for now. 

My tip for odd meter is to work out how the drummer is grouping and then the backbeat will make sense, for examply most drummer play a bar of 7/8 will phrase that as 2 grouping ie (4+3, 3+4, 6+1). Depending on the feel of the song the snare will then usually be either on the stressed beat of each grouping or on the first note of the 2nd grouping. 

As for drum programming, its pretty easy but I would actually advise a slightly different starting point to octatonic. Firstly if it was me I'd probably just  say fuck it to any really subtle tempo changes and only get the big stuff. If you really want to be accurate to the recording you can tap a tempo map out first but its a total ballache. If I was going to do it, id do it first though.

Then for each section I'd lay down the main groove starting with whatever piece is keeping the pulse, usually the hi-hat but it could also be the ride or floor tom reasonably often. This should be a steady line of notes the same note value apart and I'd work on accenting them correctly, for a lot of music that will be loud, quieter, normal, quieter to give a *1*,2-3-4 kind of feel but you could also have phrasing in 3's. As a guitarist if you count you will naturally stress a similar accent pattern. Then after that I'd put in the bass drums then the snares and finally any other kit pieces.

I'd then copy and paste the main grooves as much as possible to get as much of the song covered before working on fills and variations. 

Note that while it is true that real drummers often play around the beat I always get more mileage out of getting teh velocity right to give groove. I'll only typically nudge things off time if it feels wrong or for things like fills but the problem is if you dont get it jsut right you end up making the next beat feel wrong so playing around with humanising the timing in my view is at the low rewards section of the 80/20 rule.

In terms of dynamics hats, then snare, then bass drum are your priority order but you will need to attack all of those at a minimum to get a decent sounding groove.

Also while I get the whole "think like a drummer" thing I wouldnt focus too much on the 8 armed drummer thing. While its true that a drummer cant hit more than 4 things at once doing something like forgetting to remove the hi hat on the same beat as the crash isnt going to be what lifts your drums out of robot land..its the velocity programming thats going to do that. 

I'll take a listen to the song later tonight  to see if I have any specific thoughts

octatonic

PolarityMan said:

octatonic said:

Then place kick drums at the start of each bar and snares on the backbeat (usually the 3 but in odd times it might not be)

Ok so I haven't listened yet, but I really enjoy drum programming and have done a ton of it. So my comments are more on the general side for now. 

My tip for odd meter is to work out how the drummer is grouping and then the backbeat will make sense, for examply most drummer play a bar of 7/8 will phrase that as 2 grouping ie (4+3, 3+4, 6+1). Depending on the feel of the song the snare will then usually be either on the stressed beat of each grouping or on the first note of the 2nd grouping. 

As for drum programming, its pretty easy but I would actually advise a slightly different starting point to octatonic. Firstly if it was me I'd probably just  say fuck it to any really subtle tempo changes and only get the big stuff. If you really want to be accurate to the recording you can tap a tempo map out first but its a total ballache. If I was going to do it, id do it first though.

Then for each section I'd lay down the main groove starting with whatever piece is keeping the pulse, usually the hi-hat but it could also be the ride or floor tom reasonably often. This should be a steady line of notes the same note value apart and I'd work on accenting them correctly, for a lot of music that will be loud, quieter, normal, quieter to give a *1*,2-3-4 kind of feel but you could also have phrasing in 3's. As a guitarist if you count you will naturally stress a similar accent pattern. Then after that I'd put in the bass drums then the snares and finally any other kit pieces.

I'd then copy and paste the main grooves as much as possible to get as much of the song covered before working on fills and variations. 

Note that while it is true that real drummers often play around the beat I always get more mileage out of getting teh velocity right to give groove. I'll only typically nudge things off time if it feels wrong or for things like fills but the problem is if you dont get it jsut right you end up making the next beat feel wrong so playing around with humanising the timing in my view is at the low rewards section of the 80/20 rule.

In terms of dynamics hats, then snare, then bass drum are your priority order but you will need to attack all of those at a minimum to get a decent sounding groove.

Also while I get the whole "think like a drummer" thing I wouldnt focus too much on the 8 armed drummer thing. While its true that a drummer cant hit more than 4 things at once doing something like forgetting to remove the hi hat on the same beat as the crash isnt going to be what lifts your drums out of robot land..its the velocity programming thats going to do that. 

I'll take a listen to the song later tonight  to see if I have any specific thoughts

Agree with everything you say.
I should have said I don't recommend trying to get all the exact time changes- it might not even be possible to do so.

On the 'think like a drummer'- I guess the reason I mention it is it is easy to program things that are impossible for a drummer to play- like 5 coincident hits, or things that don't work musically (for example a snare on the 1 is pretty rare).

Getting 80% there with good time and tone, with a vocabulary that is typical of 'good drumming' will be enough work in itself.

pintspiller

For the last week I have rerecorded three songs I wrote over twenty years ago using  MT Power Drum Kit which is free.

Whether parts can be changed to odd time signatures will be down to you. It may be possible by trial and error.

prowla

A real drum is hard to beat.

PolarityMan

Ok so for this one there's tons of little tom fills that would need some care to stop sounding robotic. It wouldn't be difficult necessarily but it would be laborious. I'd probably reduce the number of variations and re-use parts. 

PolarityMan

The other thing with toms is that they are super variable between drum libraries in my experience, there seem to be laods that are aimed at huge mega hits rather than this kind of playing so sound selection up front is worth spending a bit of time on. 

Clarky

Jalapeno said:

Calling @Clarky ;

ah yes... drum programming is something I love doing..

to reiterate what Cirrus and Octa say..
think like a drummer [I was a drummer long before I was a guitarist]..
there's two parts to this...
not only thinking about the parts you play.. but also thinking about how you play with respect to accents / strong and soft hits..
so you can't programme the drums all at the same velocity and expect the part to sound great no matter what samples you have.. 
this takes experience and is seriously helped if you can play drums for real

how you programme them: play the parts in on a midi kit or pad / on a keyboard [which almost always sounds wrong] or mouse them in..
I mouse them in.. every beat and velocity setting.. yup.. folks think I'm nuts cos it's slow [actually you get used to it so it's not slow at all].. but to mouse the drums in you seriously need to be able to mentally visualise the part.. every hit, accent, grace not etc..
if you can't programme them from scratch, some plug-ins like BFD come with loops that were played in by real drummers..
you can use them like blocks of lego.. you can also edit them.. great way to start if you don't have that drummer's mind thing going on..

yes I managed to create some great drum parts using the drums that came with Logic long before I got BFD2 [then BFD3]..
but sounds wise they have limitations..
what helps is splitting the kit out so each kit piece appears on it's own channel in the mixer.. then you have more control over production..
if you're serious.. it don't get better than BFD3.. which has it's own mixer in it [although I split that out individually [including the kit mics]..

Octa is better at production than me.. but this is where you can make passable programming sound great..
and amazing programming sound shite.. production really matters..
this is the difference between 'tip tap' and knocking walls down..

top tip for someone new to this..
- BFD3
- learn to be creative with the loops at first [btw - Logic has some ok loops too]
- learn how to mix and produce drums

if you're serious, learn to play a kit for real..
you don't have to be Neil Peart, but knowing how to play, the sorts of things drummers do and what it feels like to play matters..