Piano is hard

axisus

greejn said:

Try a Carole King approach, chords in the right hand and simple bass notes in the left, it's very solid. I've got articles on hubpages.com which may help.

Pretty much what I do. I play all bass as octaves which fattens the sound up.

thecolourbox

paulmapp8306 said:

Two hands working independently is difficult (let alone 10 digits).  i still struggling at times 2.5 years down the line.  It does get easier though.

Surprisingly playing guitar doesnt help - in fact the opposite is true, it actually hinders.  You may "Think" your two hands are independent playing guitar - but in fact there not.,  There used in tandem but together - that is they do different things to produce one outcome (is your plucking or strumming the strings you fretting) - so as far as you mind is concerned they work together.   With Piano thats not the case - there playing different patterns, in different keys, at different rhythms in many cases - truly independent.

Interestingly, the other way around works rather well I find. I've never had a single lesson in finger picking yet can pick it up pretty easily on Acoustic and I've no doubt it's because of the piano background I have.

And yes @Danny1969 sounds good but would sound better if your wrists were higher (or is it your seating position that needs to be higher?)

octatonic

axisus said:

greejn said:

Try a Carole King approach, chords in the right hand and simple bass notes in the left, it's very solid. I've got articles on hubpages.com which may help.

Pretty much what I do. I play all bass as octaves which fattens the sound up.

The path to hand independence from there is to pedal between the octave notes.
Then play Root 3rd 5th with the left.

Danny1969

thecolourbox said:

paulmapp8306 said:

Two hands working independently is difficult (let alone 10 digits).  i still struggling at times 2.5 years down the line.  It does get easier though.

Surprisingly playing guitar doesnt help - in fact the opposite is true, it actually hinders.  You may "Think" your two hands are independent playing guitar - but in fact there not.,  There used in tandem but together - that is they do different things to produce one outcome (is your plucking or strumming the strings you fretting) - so as far as you mind is concerned they work together.   With Piano thats not the case - there playing different patterns, in different keys, at different rhythms in many cases - truly independent.

Interestingly, the other way around works rather well I find. I've never had a single lesson in finger picking yet can pick it up pretty easily on Acoustic and I've no doubt it's because of the piano background I have.

And yes @Danny1969 sounds good but would sound better if your wrists were higher (or is it your seating position that needs to be higher?)

I never sit down to play keys, in bands I'm always standing and in my home studio my keyboard is setup to play standing. 

I have an awful hand technique, a proper player hands look elegant ... mine look like claws I started playing with no lessons and developed an awful technique ... which is why I always recommend to use the correct fingering from the get go .. which I didn't and it caused problems later. 

thecolourbox

Danny1969 said:

thecolourbox said:

paulmapp8306 said:

Two hands working independently is difficult (let alone 10 digits).  i still struggling at times 2.5 years down the line.  It does get easier though.

Surprisingly playing guitar doesnt help - in fact the opposite is true, it actually hinders.  You may "Think" your two hands are independent playing guitar - but in fact there not.,  There used in tandem but together - that is they do different things to produce one outcome (is your plucking or strumming the strings you fretting) - so as far as you mind is concerned they work together.   With Piano thats not the case - there playing different patterns, in different keys, at different rhythms in many cases - truly independent.

Interestingly, the other way around works rather well I find. I've never had a single lesson in finger picking yet can pick it up pretty easily on Acoustic and I've no doubt it's because of the piano background I have.

And yes @Danny1969 sounds good but would sound better if your wrists were higher (or is it your seating position that needs to be higher?)

I never sit down to play keys, in bands I'm always standing and in my home studio my keyboard is setup to play standing. 

I have an awful hand technique, a proper player hands look elegant ... mine look like claws I started playing with no lessons and developed an awful technique ... which is why I always recommend to use the correct fingering from the get go .. which I didn't and it caused problems later. 

Yes it kind of looks like that actually, like you're not used to having your hands in that position. Is your position better when stood up? Thinking though you'd probably get strains on the top of your hands instead

Here's my hand positions albeit playing a different style (please excuse the sloppy candenzas):



I'm quite a lazy player especially these days as I can't practice enough to keep my stamina up, but hopefully it shows it's a bit higher at the wrist

TheOtherDennis

Well if there's one thing I've learned from putting this thread up, especially from the last few posts, it's that I'm playing in completely the wrong position! My my body is too close to the keyboard and whether I'm standing or sitting, the keyboard is too high.

My problem is there's nowhere else in the house for the piano to go, even though it's just a digital keyboard and effectively can go anywhere. Bugger, that's not going to help, is it? Hmm...

Oh, and I thought that was really nicely played, btw, @thecolourbox, can't imagine I'll ever get close to that level of ability.

thecolourbox

Cheers @TheOtherDennis but to be fair I did over 10 years of lessons and exams as a youngster so the basics don't really go away after that much drilling into you!

Re your seating position. The main benefit of he higher wrists and slightly further away sitting position is the freedom of movement - if you sit really close and need to move your hand position even half an octave, you'll have to shift your torso to do it. Not only is that a strain but you also won't be able to do it very smoothly. Sit a bit further away and you only have to move your forearms really and that's a lot easier/smoother/quicker than having to wrangle your torso into position.

Is your keyboard on a stand? If so it should be adjustable? Could you use a cushion as a booster seat"? I sometimes do that to do be honest even now.

I think maybe the height of the keyboard might make more difference than how close you sit to it - though could be wrong. A lot of "pop" pianists seem to adopt the "Hunched over the keyboard" thing which I guess is where you may have picked that up - it helps you reach a mic if you're singing and certainly gives off the angsty musician image much better than the more classical sitting back position, but it doesn't make it easier to play.

axisus

octatonic said:

axisus said:

greejn said:

Try a Carole King approach, chords in the right hand and simple bass notes in the left, it's very solid. I've got articles on hubpages.com which may help.

Pretty much what I do. I play all bass as octaves which fattens the sound up.

The path to hand independence from there is to pedal between the octave notes.
Then play Root 3rd 5th with the left.

Yeah, I can do that, I can also play the regular way but in my old age it takes a vast amount of practice to learn and memorise a medium level piece. The chord thing is just fun and instant gratification. The next step up from that is weaving the melody in - easier in some keys than others!

thomasw88

axisus said:

octatonic said:

axisus said:

greejn said:

Try a Carole King approach, chords in the right hand and simple bass notes in the left, it's very solid. I've got articles on hubpages.com which may help.

Pretty much what I do. I play all bass as octaves which fattens the sound up.

The path to hand independence from there is to pedal between the octave notes.
Then play Root 3rd 5th with the left.

Yeah, I can do that, I can also play the regular way but in my old age it takes a vast amount of practice to learn and memorise a medium level piece. The chord thing is just fun and instant gratification. The next step up from that is weaving the melody in - easier in some keys than others!

I think with piano music -  it's more important to learn to read music than to try and memorise pieces.  Obviously when you are learning to play a specfic piece you do get an element of muscle memory but once you get past a certain level most pieces are too complex to remember for any specific length of time.

Obviously if you're just doing some chord patterns etc that isn't neccesarily the case.

TheOtherDennis

thecolourbox said:

Cheers @TheOtherDennis but to be fair I did over 10 years of lessons and exams as a youngster so the basics don't really go away after that much drilling into you!

Re your seating position. The main benefit of he higher wrists and slightly further away sitting position is the freedom of movement - if you sit really close and need to move your hand position even half an octave, you'll have to shift your torso to do it. Not only is that a strain but you also won't be able to do it very smoothly. Sit a bit further away and you only have to move your forearms really and that's a lot easier/smoother/quicker than having to wrangle your torso into position.

Is your keyboard on a stand? If so it should be adjustable? Could you use a cushion as a booster seat"? I sometimes do that to do be honest even now.

I think maybe the height of the keyboard might make more difference than how close you sit to it - though could be wrong. A lot of "pop" pianists seem to adopt the "Hunched over the keyboard" thing which I guess is where you may have picked that up - it helps you reach a mic if you're singing and certainly gives off the angsty musician image much better than the more classical sitting back position, but it doesn't make it easier to play.

No, my keyboard isn't on a stand - it's on a table, so it's not adjustable. I didn't buy a stand with it, because I thought we still had the stand from when my son failed to learn how to play at school, but I've not been able to find it. Even if I did, I've nowhere to put it, we just have too much stuff in our house.  

I know I'm in the wrong position because even when I stand I get strain in my wrist muscles (not serious, just tiredness from using muscles I don't normally stretch, I don't let it get that far).

I'll need to rethink this before I go any further, because it's clearly a bigger factor than I first thought.

thecolourbox

Hmm I'll have a think, don't let it force you to stop though mate, as you'll still progress with practice.

Could you try tilting it a bit? Like prop it up on the far side so the keys are lower at the front that the back? Not sure it'll work but could try. Definitely try the booster seat cushion!

icu81b4

I'm really glad I found this thread, I'm also learning to play and passed grade 1 with a teacher - but moved house  and decided to continue with a cassette course I purchased in the 70's and never got around to doing it - yep I'm retired now. - The course is called Play it Today - and has 40 cassettes and associated sheet music .. and I'm now on book 13 - and finding it really difficult, and as mentioned above, I thought as I can play fingerstyle guitar I thought this would be similar. - it's much harder. 

TheOtherDennis

thecolourbox said:

Hmm I'll have a think, don't let it force you to stop though mate, as you'll still progress with practice.

Could you try tilting it a bit? Like prop it up on the far side so the keys are lower at the front that the back? Not sure it'll work but could try. Definitely try the booster seat cushion!

@thecolourbox I'll definitely find a way to keep going, but I'll keep looking at a way of getting it at the right height.

@icu81b4 Oh I didn't imagine it would be similar to fingerstyle guitar, I knew it would be harder than that, I just wasn't ready for how hard 

icu81b4

@TheOtherDennis Well I'm glad it's not just me that finds it hard. I keep thinking why am I putting myself through this, I've no intention of playing in front of anyone, but once I have completed a piece it gives me some satisfaction. 
 

Dominic

I played piano since age 4 and still find it hard 55 years later although I'm a reasonable player.
but I find it a lot easier than guitar and more logical when you look at a keyboard or at a stave .If you imagine a stave chord notation being vertical on the page rather than horizontal you can almost copy the shape with your hand -the note spaces are a clue starting with the lowest......you become instinctively aware of sharps and flats if you know what key you are in / what the chord shape looks like .
Arps are very logical but to get them rolling smoothly is simply a question of fingering and muscle memory....just keep practicing them.Don't expect to start with the 3rd movement of the Moonlight Sonata !

TheOtherDennis

3rd movement of the Moonlight Sonata? Pah! 2nd movement of Rachmaninov's 3rd, I think you'll find. Hmmph.

;-) Aaaaaaaaaasssssss if.

thecolourbox

Dominic said:

I played piano since age 4 and still find it hard 55 years later although I'm a reasonable player.
but I find it a lot easier than guitar and more logical when you look at a keyboard or at a stave .If you imagine a stave chord notation being vertical on the page rather than horizontal you can almost copy the shape with your hand -the note spaces are a clue starting with the lowest......you become instinctively aware of sharps and flats if you know what key you are in / what the chord shape looks like .
Arps are very logical but to get them rolling smoothly is simply a question of fingering and muscle memory....just keep practicing them.Don't expect to start with the 3rd movement of the Moonlight Sonata !

On the flipside, if you played that movement (or the 1st movement) slowly you'd be practising your arpeggios quite comprehensibly!

Nyquist

Same here. I make an attempt every few years to learn how to play properly and it's always painfully slow going. I am focusing on hammond organ this time around. Trying to learn Green Onions but even something as simple as Louie Louie is hard work (and it's only 3 chords).

Can anyone recommend any good resources, Youtube teachers etc? Most sheet music and a lot of lessons I can find seem designed to play whole arrangement and vocal melody on the piano rather than what the keyboard player in a band would actually play.

thanks

djspecialist

I'm going to learn to play.

My kids have been taking lessons for a couple of years. I sit in with them, and help them with their practice. Based on that I reckon my current standard is that, given a week or two of work, I could pass grade 1.

I'm going to speak to the teacher and ask whether he'd take me on as well - I think I definitely need the rigour of 1-to-1 tuition in order to progress. He lives in the next street, but right now we're doing lessons via Zoom.

There's a long road ahead - wish me luck!

paulmapp8306

Based on the "syllabus" I wouldnt even pass grade 1.   why - the sight reading bit.  Never learned, never want to.  I play by ear - totally.  As its a requirement for grades Id be wasting time and money.