Bass amp (head) for small to medium gigs?

Creed_Clicks

Hi all, as per other threads, my preamp for home is sorted, so looking ahead to a gigging amp. My live bass experience in the past was with borrowed amps, always solid state. Torque, Peavey, Ashdown combos, and I borrowed a Mark Bass head once which was the best out of the lot. I remember it was heavy for such a small head.

Anyhow, as a guitarist, I found a 15 to 30 watt tube amp was always plenty for the gigs I used to do, so using that as a reference point for bass. (The odd time, if the drumming got really loud, the amp might have struggled on a 15 w tube setting). Currently use a 50w solid state Quilter into a 1x10 and it's more than loud enough for any gigs I've done with it.

Going to stick to solid state, and I am thinking head, because depending on the gig, I could have a small cab or a larger cab.
I was looking at some hybrid heads too, but no idea if this could be a road to go down.

I had been thinking of the Trace Elliot Elf, but 200 watts might not be enough? The Mark Bass III could be an option too, but interested to hear advice. The days of lugging heavy sh*t around is gone too. I'd probably use a boost or overdrive (like the nano battalion) with the pedal and reverb if it needed it.

Ampeg Portaflex 350? Hybrid etc?

Bridgehouse

Creed_Clicks said:

Hi all, as per other threads, my preamp for home is sorted, so looking ahead to a gigging amp. My live bass experience in the past was with borrowed amps, always solid state. Torque, Peavey, Ashdown combos, and I borrowed a Mark Bass head once which was the best out of the lot. I remember it was heavy for such a small head.

Anyhow, as a guitarist, I found a 15 to 30 watt tube amp was always plenty for the gigs I used to do, so using that as a reference point for bass. (The odd time, if the drumming got really loud, the amp might have struggled on a 15 w tube setting). Currently use a 50w solid state Quilter into a 1x10 and it's more than loud enough for any gigs I've done with it.

Going to stick to solid state, and I am thinking head, because depending on the gig, I could have a small cab or a larger cab.
I was looking at some hybrid heads too, but no idea if this could be a road to go down.

I had been thinking of the Trace Elliot Elf, but 200 watts might not be enough? The Mark Bass III could be an option too, but interested to hear advice. The days of lugging heavy sh*t around is gone too. I'd probably use a boost or overdrive (like the nano battalion) with the pedal and reverb if it needed it.

Ampeg Portaflex 350? Hybrid etc?

You need more bass watts than guitar watts with Class D amplifiers..

I've got an old Trace Elliot 1x15 combo rated at 150watts and it's epic in it's loudness. But it's class B. And it weighs as much as a Nissan Micra.

For lightweight then you do want a Class D amp. I personally don't like the MarkBass ones - if I were you I'd go onto Bass Direct and have a look at their range - the EICH are brilliant, as are the EBS heads. Aguilar are good but a bit more aggressive. Of course my first choice would be a MESA subway head - but they are properly spendy. 

You could look on Bass Chat for a second hand head - look for something around 500watts Class D and it will be fine for most medium venues. 

For cabs, my first choice would be a Barefaced - they are very light weight. A compact or something like that with a 1x12 or 1x15 will be more than adequate and you could add a second later on. 

I wouldn't bother with a valve head either - I have an Ampeg Portaflex PF-20T - it sounds awesome, but runs out of puff quite quickly and anything above a small venue would swamp it and you'd get lost in the mix. 

bloodandtears

I was in this exact boat about 18 months ago.. I opted for a Bugera Veyron Tube

https://www.thomann.de/gb/bugera_bv1001t_veyron_bass_head.htm?glp=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-r71BRDuARIsAB7i_QNKKqR2AD38ODAvK2eRTVfbuHbnch_DSSe8FF10kQ3sWZ_NlqXFSHgaApVJEALw_wcB

size, power, sound.. can't fault it..

I am, however, looking to sell it eventually because I'm hoping I can use my Line 6 pedal with a Laney FRFR.

Nothing wrong with the Bugera though, solid.. I think it's a clone of an Ampeg.

fretmeister

bloodandtears said:

I was in this exact boat about 18 months ago.. I opted for a Bugera Veyron Tube

https://www.thomann.de/gb/bugera_bv1001t_veyron_bass_head.htm?glp=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-r71BRDuARIsAB7i_QNKKqR2AD38ODAvK2eRTVfbuHbnch_DSSe8FF10kQ3sWZ_NlqXFSHgaApVJEALw_wcB

size, power, sound.. can't fault it..

I am, however, looking to sell it eventually because I'm hoping I can use my Line 6 pedal with a Laney FRFR.

Nothing wrong with the Bugera though, solid.. I think it's a clone of an Ampeg.

That model is a close of the Genz Streamliner.

ICBM

Typically you need three to four times as much power for bass as you do for guitar, through similar speakers, with similar amp technology. There is a good reason for this - if you go down one octave you need roughly twice as much energy to produce the same volume; and an overdriven amp can put out up to twice as much power as a clean one.

On top of that you need roughly twice the power in Class AB solid-state as you do with valve, and four times with Class D solid-state - the reasons for this are less obvious but it does seem to work like that in real-world volume. Even at that, there can be remarkable differences in perceived volume between amps with apparently similar power ratings.

So at the extreme, you may need somewhere around fifteen times as much power - 225W - with a Class D bass amp as your bandmate with his cranked 15W valve guitar amp. This sounds astonishing, but anyone who has gigged with both types of equipment in the same band will know it's true.

@Creed_Clicks - the Trace Elliot Elf probably won't be loud enough, not because you need that much more power but just because it's a really weedy 200W - it sounds like half that. My Ampeg Micro VR was much louder into the same cab, but even that was no louder than my old Peavey Century 100W... which admittedly weighed a lot more.

fretmeister

Yup.

I have 2 of the loudest Class D amps. One at 800W and the other at 900W

The 265W all valve Mesa 4:88 I had was way louder.

But to be fair, the Mesa cost nearly double the combined cost of the other 2!

fretmeister

I wouldn't go under 500W on a Class D amp if I ever wanted to do anything with a drummer.
Not unless I had a Barefaced Big Twin 2 cab to go with it.

Creed_Clicks

@fretmeister ;
@ICBM ;
Thanks for the advice there!

bandmaster188

Fender 500 rumble head. 350 to 500 watts depending on the speaker configuration you use.
i have the combo version and it’s plenty loud enough for pub/ club gigs on its own. For anything bigger, I plug in the 1x15 extension cab to get the full 500.
Not sure with the head if using a single 4 ohm cab gives you the max output or if both 8 ohm sockets need to be used to activate this.
there is an 800 version of the rumble too.

Creed_Clicks

@bandmaster188 could be a great choice too.

MattBanshee

I have a PF350 and it's great, definitely gig-worthy.

Haven't really read the rest of the comments here but you definitely can't compare a low-wattage valve guitar amp to a bass amp.

Creed_Clicks

Would 800 watts be overkill for a pub gig scenario? 

bandmaster188

Creed_Clicks said:

Would 800 watts be overkill for a pub gig scenario? 

Only if you turn it up too loud! 

Creed_Clicks

I’m looking at between 300 and 500, say, out of what I’ve been looking at.

ICBM

Creed_Clicks said:

Would 800 watts be overkill for a pub gig scenario? 

For bass, no.

Well, two Hiwatt 400s might be...

bandmaster188

Creed_Clicks said:

I’m looking at between 300 and 500, say, out of what I’ve been looking at.

In case you weren’t aware, the way the amps are rated can be a bit misleading. Take the rumble 500 for instance. When run at 8 ohm load single cab it’s only 350 watts. With 2 cabs 4 ohm load you get the full 500 watts. 

ICBM

bandmaster188 said:

In case you weren’t aware, the way the amps are rated can be a bit misleading. Take the rumble 500 for instance. When run at 8 ohm load single cab it’s only 350 watts. With 2 cabs 4 ohm load you get the full 500 watts. 

That's standard for all solid-state amps which don't have impedance selection - a very few do, but it's uncommon.

(Almost) all valve amps do, so they deliver the full power into any impedance if correctly matched.

In general, amps with a switch-mode power supply (SMPS) rather than a power transformer (linear power supply) produce *less* power into higher than their minimum impedance - often just a straight 50% into double the impedance, rather than the 60-70% typical of a linear supply. This is a further power disadvantage for the modern super-lightweight amps which use SMPSs.

Creed_Clicks

Gah! I need to figure out the wattage difference when using different cabs.
I reckon in any case, 500 watts might be enough 

ICBM

Creed_Clicks said:

Gah! I need to figure out the wattage difference when using different cabs.
I reckon in any case, 500 watts might be enough 

500W (Class D, SMPS) is enough for me, compared with a guitarist with a 30W valve amp and a 2x12" cab (which he runs just at the edge of breakup on the clean channel, if he can get away with it) and a reasonably loud drummer. It's 250W into its internal speaker and isn't really quite enough - it is just, although the 'limit' light stays on more or less continuously in louder bits - but with an extension cab it's the full 500 and easily is.

KKJale

Creed_Clicks said:

I had been thinking of the Trace Elliot Elf, but 200 watts might not be enough?

<snip>

Ampeg Portaflex 350? Hybrid etc?

To these old cloth ears the Elf has an unremitting hardness to its sound that I could not live with. The case also runs bloody hot and this makes me uneasy.

I like the sound of the PF350, it's certainly kinda-fliptop-alike, but this is one of the new-fangled heads that for me was NOT loud enough (when used with my regular Barefaced 1x12 and usual drummer in a backline only band in a typical pub gig). I bet the PF500 would have been fine and rumours are the reliability got sorted, eventually.

One hybrid head I'd recommend is the mk1 Orange Bass Terror, which generally run around £300 used. Not at all terror-ish in the metal sense, it's a super fat sounding, almost zero EQ 9lb lunchbox amp with - for a Class D power section head - real character. You can tweak the gaininess with a bit of preamp valve swapping, which is fun. It's also fecking loud and puts a true near-500w into 4 or 8 ohms.

ICBM

KKJale said:

One hybrid head I'd recommend is the mk1 Orange Bass Terror, which generally run around £300 used. Not at all terror-ish in the metal sense, it's a super fat sounding, almost zero EQ 9lb lunchbox amp with - for a part Class D head - real character. You can tweak the gaininess with a bit of preamp valve swapping, which is fun. It's also fecking loud and puts a true near-500w into 4 or 8 ohms.

These also had reliability issues, but I don't know when (or if, but I assume they were) they were sorted out. Apparently the problem was with the bought-in Class D output modules - Orange didn't actually make that bit. But very good-sounding and loud, yes.