What is it about distortion pedals that makes them sound not as good as amps?

hugbot

I had a blackstar HTdual and a blackstar HT40 for a while and they could sound pretty much identical. Although thats something of a cheat since they're probably the exact same circuit.

I prefer pedals for most things, I find amp dirt very pleasing but not as raucus as a pedal can get.

ICBM

hugbot said:

I had a blackstar HTdual and a blackstar HT40 for a while and they could sound pretty much identical. Although thats something of a cheat since they're probably the exact same circuit.

That's not a cheat, that's exactly the sort of question I was asking .

Do you mean comparing the pedal into the amp on the clean channel against the amp's own dirty channel? Did you ever try it into the FX loop return, or only run it into the front of the amp? Or into a different amp?

(Also bearing in mind both the pedal and the amp are hybrids.)

hugbot

Into the front of the amp, it wasnt 100% the same I suspect because the sound was being coloured a bit by the amps clean pre section, but very close.

dindude

I think for very high gain I agree that amps generally do the job better, although ironically I also think that these are the sounds that are most accurately replicated by digital modelling. Some high gain pedals are very good though.

For years I used 2 channel amps, a Marshall DSL, ENGL screamer, Fender Supersonic - but I always wondered why I couldn't get the drive sounds I wanted out of them, I wanted comfortably numb sound, or the edge on the fly, or eric johnson. Seriously epic sounds. 

Then I discovered drive pedals and game over, that was the sound, have since invested in a great clean amp and couldn't be happier, can chop and change drive sounds at will, and the sounds I can get make the two channel amps I've had sound flat, compressed and boring. Pedals must go into a valve amp IMO though.

In reality, a drive or fuzz pedal into a quality valve amp has far more heritage than valve pre-amp generated gain, which came later, and is therefore equally "legitimate" and it took me a while to realise that was where tone gold lay for me.

But then I'm not into massive high gain, bottom shaking tonz, in which case things may be different.

PolarityMan

I quite liked the sansamp-GT2 used to use it as my main distortion before i got a valve amp but i used it a little on the album we're working on and although i still liked it as an alternative falvour for a quad track it didnt sound as good to me as it did say 5 years ago.

Mind you i reckon modelling is going to end this pretty soon, in 5-10 years youll be able to fit an axefx quality modelling sound into a boss stomp form factor.

Danny1969

Here's an example of distortion with major thirds, it's distorted but you can still hear all the notes and it sounds great 

I can never get that clarity with drive pedals on chords, for single note stuff drive pedals are great and I probably couldn't tell the difference on lead lines but build the chord and yer good ol valve amp will generally sound a lot better. 

monquixote

I think amps are best at sounding like amps so if that's your benchmark a pedal can only fail.

The dumb thing that a lot of pedal manufacturers do is make stupid claims about pedals sounding like very specific amps (I'm looking at you Catalinbread) when they sound like distortion boxes. If you are spending £200 on a distortion box you probably already have a decent valve amp so don't tell me that this switch goes between a 1968 plexi with a valve rectifier and a 1987 JCM800 with a modified tone stack just tell me it switches between silicon and LED clipping because I've owned enough distortion pedals to know what that means.

I've never really found any amps where I've ever bonded with the drive channel like I have with a Shredmaster, Riot, or Bogner Red. It may be because I haven't tried the right pedals, but even when I was playing through Photek's JVM we ended up using a Box of Rock even though there were four channels of gain to play with. 

impmann

It depends on the type of clipping you are wishing to achieve.

I tend to find the rock nerds start slathering on about cranked Marshalls and that nothing sounds as good. Well, yes if that is what you want.

And then you get the white boy blooze brigade whittering about loud Fenders with a Tubescreamer in front of them as being the canine appendages. Erm, yes if that's what you like.

Then you get the Klon/Dumble guys, who believe in mojo, magic and gooked boards to get their tone. Yes, if that's what you like.

Then you get the Post Punk guys with spiky, angular tones that jar and counter the smoothness of the above. Yes great, but only if you like it.

Then you get the super-gain, crush-the-sound into Lucifer's own bottom burps, brigade... Not even sure how you go that (or why, but hey I'm not knocking it). Yes great, but only if that's what you like.

There's good and bad examples of both schools.

No right no wrong.

meltedbuzzbox

I'm with impmann

however I like my dirt boxes run into a Fender twin, but I am no blues player.

Its all about the clean channel for me, hi gain amps tend to have a clean tone that is very flacid and distorted

Anyway back on topic, its all bollocks really, you likes what you likes

JohnPerry

ICBM said:

Do valve pedals or external preamps - assuming they are actually all-valve, or close enough to it to be equivalent to a valve amp preamp - sound as good into a clean amp, as an overdriven amp does?

yes. Kingsley pedal into clean Two Rock trumps any amp OD I've owned. Including the drive channel on the amp itself.

timmysoft

I enjoy pedals more, I find an amps power section is usually tuned to do one thing well, ive yet to encounter a channel switcher that truly delivers great cleans and great dirt.

monquixote

timmysoft said:

I enjoy pedals more, I find an amps power section is usually tuned to do one thing well, ive yet to encounter a channel switcher that truly delivers great cleans and great dirt.

That's it for me. I know of amps that do great cleans, or great filth, but I've never found one that really excels at both.

Grumpyrocker

I've been coming to the conclusion that the metal/rock tones I've liked the most haven't come from tube amps I've owned - but from the rather inexpensive Marshall Jackhammer pedal. 

Somehow though there's a snobbish part of me that feels odd about putting a dirt pedal like that into the front of my high gain amp and not using its channels. But it really doesn't matter.

Amp/pedal - whatever sounds best - no matter the cost or pedigree.

Dave_Mc

JohnPerry said:
yes. Kingsley pedal into clean Two Rock trumps any amp OD I've owned. Including the drive channel on the amp itself.

(Taking a leaf out of ICBM's book here) Ah, but does it trump the OD channel of every amp? I mean, it's all well and good saying "Dirt pedals sound better than my Hot Rod Deluxe's OD channel", for example. A lot of players try an HRD, find its drive channels suck (quiet, ICBM! ) ), and then pronounce amp overdrive to suck, when what they've actually proved is that one amp's overdrive channels suck (for them).

Don't get me wrong, if you like that pedal's sound, that's your prerogative (I haven't tried it). Just as ICBM implied above, the question is actually pretty nuanced.

ICBM said:

Rather than trying to answer the question, I'm going to ask a few more…

Do valve pedals or external preamps - assuming they are actually all-valve, or close enough to it to be equivalent to a valve amp preamp - sound as good into a clean amp, as an overdriven amp does? Even a MV one, where the amp's distortion is all coming from the preamp?

Do external preamps sound better directly into the amp's power amp, or into the front?

Does a distortion pedal sound better into a valve amp which is primarily designed for a dirty sound, but which is actually running clean (eg a Mesa Rectifier on the clean channel), than it does into a valve amp designed to be clean (eg a FenderTwin)?

Does a hybrid amp sound better than a pedal into a clean valve amp? Not a 'single token valve' type hybrid, eg Marshall Valvestate - more of a proper hybrid like a Marshall JCM900 Dual Reverb or a Blackstar HT series where both technologies are used throughout the amp.

If you do like fuzz, some old solid-state amps from the 70s sound fantastic, and totally unlike any modern amp. Do fuzz pedals sound as good? (Or even the same?) Does it make any difference if they're going into valve or solid-state amps?

No idea but those are definitely the kind of things you'd want to test )

I kind of suspect (could be wrong) when most people (not in this thread, I mean guitar players in general) ask this they're probably not going into that amount of depth. Plus it's hard to try a lot of these things- if you don't have access to a guitar shop or something like that, it gets expensive pretty quickly )

impmann said:

It depends on the type of clipping you are wishing to achieve.

I tend to find the rock nerds start slathering on about cranked Marshalls and that nothing sounds as good. Well, yes if that is what you want.

And then you get the white boy blooze brigade whittering about loud Fenders with a Tubescreamer in front of them as being the canine appendages. Erm, yes if that's what you like.

Then you get the Klon/Dumble guys, who believe in mojo, magic and gooked boards to get their tone. Yes, if that's what you like.

Then you get the Post Punk guys with spiky, angular tones that jar and counter the smoothness of the above. Yes great, but only if you like it.

Then you get the super-gain, crush-the-sound into Lucifer's own bottom burps, brigade... Not even sure how you go that (or why, but hey I'm not knocking it). Yes great, but only if that's what you like.

There's good and bad examples of both schools.

No right no wrong.

Agreed. I like the high gain amp thing because it suits what i normally play- but for classic rock or something like that I'd rather use a lower gain amp and maybe a fuzz pedal or something like that. If you use the right gear (or at least, ballpark right gear) that's normally the best way. Plus it's the most fun (maybe). ) I know I enjoy using the right gear for certain tones- how much of it is BS and how much reality, I dunno, though. Maybe I try harder to nail the tones with the "right" gear because I know I should be able to get there, or subconsciously play better because I know I'm using suitable kit. Plus plenty of other players get a kick out of getting there using totally the wrong kit, which can be fun too.

JohnPerry

I've owned a fair few high-end amps. But even I would struggle to state that that setup trumps the OD channel of every amp in existence. Just the ones I've heard.

Bidley

I'm a hi-gainer, and my weapon(s) of choice is amp lead channel + tubescreamer. Nothing else does it quite the same, for me.

ThePrettyDamned

I need one of these I think

Gimme a pedal that does that, whether running into a power amp or into a clean channel, and I'll be very happy.

Drew_TNBD

I've never gotten "Jonez Tonez" from pedals. My tonal benchmark is something like 46 and 2:



AFAIK, he used a Marshall Superbass (modified to be a Superlead) and a Dual Rectifier. His Diezel VH4 didn't come until later. He boosts with an MXR Micro Amp.

Then you've got ISIS, who did In The Absence Of Truth, which is my favourite album of theirs:



That's all Fryette/VHT amp heads cranked tah fook!!

In my personal experience, I've used RAT's, Muff's, the SD1, SD2, DS1, and an MXR Dist+. I've used the HT Dual, one of those KRANK pedals, Fulltone OCD, a few variants on the Tubescreamer. The Guvnor pedal that everyone loves (but I honestly thought was utter crap). The Hardwire Metal Distortion, which was okay but again... lacked something compared to an amp. Sure there are more I'm forgetting.

Currently I have a Boo Instruments tubescreamer clone, and I use it for mid-gain tones and dirty cleans. Truth be told, I could do with another distortion pedal on there to give me instant access to both sounds without having to bend down!! But it could never be my main source of riffage.

impmann

I love 46 & 2... incredible stuff.

meltedbuzzbox

Grumpyrocker said:

I've been coming to the conclusion that the metal/rock tones I've liked the most haven't come from tube amps I've owned - but from the rather inexpensive Marshall Jackhammer pedal. 

Somehow though there's a snobbish part of me that feels odd about putting a dirt pedal like that into the front of my high gain amp and not using its channels. But it really doesn't matter.

Amp/pedal - whatever sounds best - no matter the cost or pedigree.

I too have a Jackhammer. Love that thing. The hooligan in a box and it has some monster low end.

Sounds huge through a fender twin