What is it about distortion pedals that makes them sound not as good as amps?

What's Hot
135

Comments

  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Also this isn't a "OMG TOOOBZZZ!" rant. I love my Axe FX for high-gain stuff.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • steamabacussteamabacus Frets: 1258
    Drew_fx said:
    Also this isn't a "OMG TOOOBZZZ!" rant. I love my Axe FX for high-gain stuff.
    Which begs the question, "What does the AxeFX have that distortion pedals don't?"

    I think it was you who mentioned signal-to-noise levels re. modelling in some other thread. Is it something as simple as that that makes the difference with your tones? It seems logical that s/n might be perceived as greater depth and '3d-ness'.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • kelvinburnkelvinburn Frets: 156
    Does high gain amp distortion not always need a tubescreamer to stop it from sounding mushy as fook?
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Does high gain amp distortion not always need a tubescreamer to stop it from sounding mushy as fook?
    No, not at all. I never use a tubescreamer in front of my amps. Depends what you want I suppose.


    Drew_fx said:
    Also this isn't a "OMG TOOOBZZZ!" rant. I love my Axe FX for high-gain stuff.
    Which begs the question, "What does the AxeFX have that distortion pedals don't?"

    I think it was you who mentioned signal-to-noise levels re. modelling in some other thread. Is it something as simple as that that makes the difference with your tones? It seems logical that s/n might be perceived as greater depth and '3d-ness'.
    Not 100% sure I'm following your logic there boss. Can you expand?
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • steamabacussteamabacus Frets: 1258
    Drew_fx said:
    Does high gain amp distortion not always need a tubescreamer to stop it from sounding mushy as fook?
    No, not at all. I never use a tubescreamer in front of my amps. Depends what you want I suppose.


    Drew_fx said:
    Also this isn't a "OMG TOOOBZZZ!" rant. I love my Axe FX for high-gain stuff.
    Which begs the question, "What does the AxeFX have that distortion pedals don't?"

    I think it was you who mentioned signal-to-noise levels re. modelling in some other thread. Is it something as simple as that that makes the difference with your tones? It seems logical that s/n might be perceived as greater depth and '3d-ness'.
    Not 100% sure I'm following your logic there boss. Can you expand?
    I'm just about to head out - I'll get back to you on this later.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2328
    JohnPerry said:
    I've owned a fair few high-end amps. But even I would struggle to state that that setup trumps the OD channel of every amp in existence. Just the ones I've heard.
    Hehe no worries :)
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • EvilmagsEvilmags Frets: 5158
    I use a single channel no master volume amp (Blackstar Artisan) and have the Bolackstar HT metal pedal (the same pre amp unit they put in their amps). It sounds like amp distortion. I also use an OCD and TS) clone if it needs boosting. Best of both worlds.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1589
    hugbot said:
    I had a blackstar HTdual and a blackstar HT40 for a while and they could sound pretty much identical. Although thats something of a cheat since they're probably the exact same circuit.

    I prefer pedals for most things, I find amp dirt very pleasing but not as raucus as a pedal can get.

    There is a "family resemblance" certainly but the devil is in the detail. The voicing is different. In any case the HT-40 has a separate ECC83 for clean and OD channels.

    Interesting debate but there will be as many answers as there are different pedals and amps!

    Dave.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5700

    @Drew_fx  ; is it that you haven't found/set a pedal to give a sound as close to what you want as you can with an amp?

     

    Not that amp or pedal drive is better than the other.

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    mike_l said:

    @Drew_fx  ; is it that you haven't found/set a pedal to give a sound as close to what you want as you can with an amp?

     

    Not that amp or pedal drive is better than the other.

    Quite possibly. I have used a lot of pedals though, so my experience is pretty varied.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • kelvinburnkelvinburn Frets: 156

    Have you tried pedals like the Stone Deaf PDF 1 or the Pearl DS06? 

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445

    Have you tried pedals like the Stone Deaf PDF 1 or the Pearl DS06? 

    Nein.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • 57Deluxe57Deluxe Frets: 7329
    edited June 2014
    *ANY* OD pedal can sound good within its own paramters- is the limitation of the user and total lack of subtly that is often the culprit.

    Listen to the gear and let it breathe - don't try and force it to produce some unrealistic sound you have in your head!
    <Vintage BOSS Upgrades>
    __________________________________
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • meltedbuzzboxmeltedbuzzbox Frets: 10337
    Evilmags said:
    Bolackstar HT 
    Nail on the head my friend
    The Bigsby was the first successful design of what is now called a whammy bar or tremolo arm, although vibrato is the technically correct term for the musical effect it produces. In standard usage, tremolo is a rapid fluctuation of the volume of a note, while vibrato is a fluctuation in pitch. The origin of this nonstandard usage of the term by electric guitarists is attributed to Leo Fender, who also used the term “vibrato” to refer to what is really a tremolo effect.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • steamabacussteamabacus Frets: 1258
    Drew_fx said:

    Drew_fx said:
    Also this isn't a "OMG TOOOBZZZ!" rant. I love my Axe FX for high-gain stuff.
    Which begs the question, "What does the AxeFX have that distortion pedals don't?"

    I think it was you who mentioned signal-to-noise levels re. modelling in some other thread. Is it something as simple as that that makes the difference with your tones? It seems logical that s/n might be perceived as greater depth and '3d-ness'.
    Not 100% sure I'm following your logic there boss. Can you expand?
    Sorry, took me a while to get back to you on this.

    So, trying to recollect my train of thought .... and starting from the assumption that there is a tangible objective difference you're noticing and this isn't just a subjective 'taste' thing.

    You've said this isn't a 'magic in the toobs' thing and that you can get the kind of tones you're after from the AxeFX as well as real amps, so it isn't digital vs. analogue either. My only experience with modelling is with the first generation of PODs and with a mate's later POD floorboard - both of which I'd say sounded very 'flat' (the opposite of the '3D-ness' you say you get with the high-end modelling). So what does the AxeFX's hugely more powerful number crunching achieve that the old PODs don't?

    My instant thought was something to do with signal-to-noise ratio - both the higher operating voltages inside an amp and the better processing power of the AxeFX would logically seem to be able to achieve this compared to a 9V distortion pedal. Again, I admit I'm no electronics engineer and I'd be interested if anyone has any pertinent knowledge to support or refute this.

    Our brains are very finely tuned to separate out pertinent information from background noise, even if we're not consciously aware of the process. We can very easily follow a quiet distant conversation in a room full of hubbub in a way that is very difficult to achieve with an automated device, a computer. We are capable of extremely powerful filtering and processing operations without even thinking about it. Especially so if we have trained that 'ear'.

    Now, I'd expect a modern high-gain distortion pedal to include noise gating, etc. to deal with deal with background noise when there is no signal. But what of the noise that's there when a signal is present? It may be obscured by the much higher 'information' signal and not be obvious but that doesn't mean we are incapable of being aware of it in some way. Like I said earlier, we are incredibly well adapted to intuitively separate out information from background noise.

    Using terms like '3D-ness' and 'in your face' seems (to me) to be suggestive of a greater clarity of 'information' relative to background 'noise' - more of what we want, more of what triggers those mental/emotional responses, more musical sound.

    I'd be interested if there's any sound theoretical scientific basis to back up my thoughts on this.

    Anyone?


    B-)
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    In my way of asking questions rather than giving answers ;), isn't it more likely that the opposite is true? Valve amps are inherently quite noisy things, and also prone to microphonics. Perhaps it's the *presence* - not absence - of those imperfections which is more likely to produce a more musically pleasing result.

    Some companies go to a lot of trouble to make their valve amps as quiet as possible. Do they sound 'better' and 'valve-like', or 'worse' or more 'solid-state-like' as a result?

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • steamabacussteamabacus Frets: 1258
    ICBM said:
    In my way of asking questions rather than giving answers ;), isn't it more likely that the opposite is true? Valve amps are inherently quite noisy things, and also prone to microphonics. Perhaps it's the *presence* - not absence - of those imperfections which is more likely to produce a more musically pleasing result.

    Some companies go to a lot of trouble to make their valve amps as quiet as possible. Do they sound 'better' and 'valve-like', or 'worse' or more 'solid-state-like' as a result?
    Haha - interesting.

    How about this question then. If that noisy valve amp sound becomes part of the musical experience, part of the musical 'information' that triggers the emotional response, is it truly 'noise'? Does it not become part of the 'information' separate from the other background 'noise' (e.g. environmental noise)?
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ICBM said:
    In my way of asking questions rather than giving answers ;), isn't it more likely that the opposite is true? Valve amps are inherently quite noisy things, and also prone to microphonics. Perhaps it's the *presence* - not absence - of those imperfections which is more likely to produce a more musically pleasing result.

    Some companies go to a lot of trouble to make their valve amps as quiet as possible. Do they sound 'better' and 'valve-like', or 'worse' or more 'solid-state-like' as a result?
    Lots of folks loved the blackstar sound till they found out they were hybrid amps.  They're certainly quite low noise, and often described as being a bit dull sounding.  I quite like the sound, though there are better amps out there for me.


    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    How about this question then. If that noisy valve amp sound becomes part of the musical experience, part of the musical 'information' that triggers the emotional response, is it truly 'noise'? Does it not become part of the 'information' separate from the other background 'noise' (e.g. environmental noise)?
    Yes. This is one reason why I think hum-cancelling single coil pickups - and even RWRP pairs - don't sound as 'good' as standard ones. I genuinely think the hum is part of the tone, even if it's "noise" - it subtly modulates the final sound, even if you think it's not at a very high level. I think the same is likely to be true in amps.


    Lots of folks loved the blackstar sound till they found out they were hybrid amps.  They're certainly quite low noise, and often described as being a bit dull sounding.  I quite like the sound, though there are better amps out there for me.
    For what it's worth, I never liked the Blackstar HT sound, and finding out they were hybrids has no bearing on that - in fact I much prefer the Marshall Valvestate 80xx and VS series, which are also hybrids but really an all-solid-state amp with only a token valve in the preamp, and use diode (LED) clipping for all the overdrive - whereas the HTs are more of a true hybrid with valves in both the pre and power amp, and where the solid-state does not actually contribute to the overdrive until the gain is almost all the way up. So I don't think that the reason I find them rather 'flat' sounding as well has anything to do with the solid state. (But also for what it's worth, I prefer the HTs to the Valvestate AVT series, which I find gutless and thin-sounding.)

    A different type of true hybrid is the Marshall JCM900 Dual Reverb model, which has an all-valve power amp but a complex hybrid preamp where most of the distortion comes from what are rather like a couple of pedal circuits in the front end! To me these sound a lot better than the HTs as well. So does what generates the distortion actually matter? Or is it some other characteristic of the circuit?

    I do get annoyed by the marketing BS, I have to say - I was one of those who pointed out that the HT series weren't all-valve… not because I have anything against that but because Blackstar initially tried to mislead people that they were, and still haven't ever explicitly admitted that they aren't. My favourite high-gain sounds actually come from hybrid setups anyway! (Usually a pedal into a medium-gain amp.)

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    I love the JCM900. Epic amp.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
Sign In or Register to comment.