Alternate picking - CAGED major scales

chris45

So I've taken there lockdown as an opportunity to try and unlearn some bad habits and so far I've managed to sort out how I hold my pick after a mere 35 years.  But I am feeling the benefit in terms of precision.
The next thing I am looking at is my picking when I play my scales, and I have noticed that I am not always using strict alternate picking and that I will continue with a down pick when I am moving to the next string (ascending scale) e.g. I am playing an E shape major scale and I will play:

(E string) down up
(A string) down up down
(D string) down...

Clearly it's not alternate but for me (at the moment) it flows more to continue the down stroke to the next string.  Is this another bad habit?  What are the benefits of keeping to strict alternate picking?  I am overthinking?  Any comments / thoughts appreciated

mgaw

bluegrass players have pick technique down to a fine art. perhaps check out how they approach it...Brian Sutton seems a good teacher

DulcetJones

Not sure which way is correct from person to person but when I analyzed my own technique I saw that I do strict down-up even when going to another string.  It just flows better for me.  I might have developed it way backed when I was first learning the intro to Johnny Rivers "Secret Agent Man".      

Barney

It makes sense to me rather than strict alternate to do as you do as in follow the direction the pick is going in like economy picking 
But saying that ...alternate gives a different kind of feel and sound I think  ..
I reckon it's better to get as many different techniques as possible and use as and when needed depending on the sound wanted or the easiest way to negotiate it 

Nick67

Justin Sandercoe talks about this in his one to one lessons with Lee Anderton that are available on YouTube. 

Lesson one. Really insightful.

chris45

Nick67 said:

Justin Sandercoe talks about this in his one to one lessons with Lee Anderton that are available on YouTube. 

Lesson one. Really insightful.

Hi Nick many thanks for that - I am Lee Anderton!  As you say Justin really explains the why.

Nick67

Durr. Looking at your post, maybe I should of realised.

tattypicker

I've been doing something similar to the OP, although I've been at it since before lockdown started. I think there are advantages to learning to play scales with strict alternate picking - though you won't necessarily play everything that way. If you CAN'T play alternating patterns, across different string crossing patters, and if you CAN'T insert rhythmic accents where you choose, then there's room to improve your control. 

chris45

tattypicker said:

I've been doing something similar to the OP, although I've been at it since before lockdown started. I think there are advantages to learning to play scales with strict alternate picking - though you won't necessarily play everything that way. If you CAN'T play alternating patterns, across different string crossing patters, and if you CAN'T insert rhythmic accents where you choose, then there's room to improve your control. 

I've been practicing this over the last 2 weeks and I have found that:
- I'm a bit faster on my scales using this method
- I'm a LOT better at selecting notes and picking them confidently when I solo / noodle.

Danny1969

chris45 said:

So I've taken there lockdown as an opportunity to try and unlearn some bad habits and so far I've managed to sort out how I hold my pick after a mere 35 years.  But I am feeling the benefit in terms of precision.
The next thing I am looking at is my picking when I play my scales, and I have noticed that I am not always using strict alternate picking and that I will continue with a down pick when I am moving to the next string (ascending scale) e.g. I am playing an E shape major scale and I will play:

(E string) down up
(A string) down up down
(D string) down...

Clearly it's not alternate but for me (at the moment) it flows more to continue the down stroke to the next string.  Is this another bad habit?  What are the benefits of keeping to strict alternate picking?  I am overthinking?  Any comments / thoughts appreciated

I've just tried it and i do exactly the same ... because it's the most economic way of picking I think and I'm not sure strict alt picking there would improve anything ..... i'm certainly more than happy with the speed I can pick using the double down stroke

tattypicker

chris45 said:

tattypicker said:

I've been doing something similar to the OP, although I've been at it since before lockdown started. I think there are advantages to learning to play scales with strict alternate picking - though you won't necessarily play everything that way. If you CAN'T play alternating patterns, across different string crossing patters, and if you CAN'T insert rhythmic accents where you choose, then there's room to improve your control. 

I've been practicing this over the last 2 weeks and I have found that:
- I'm a bit faster on my scales using this method
- I'm a LOT better at selecting notes and picking them confidently when I solo / noodle.

That makes perfect sense to me. I practice this pretty strictly with a metronome, and I think the gains come much more from better control than from actually moving much faster.

chris45

Danny1969 said:

chris45 said:

So I've taken there lockdown as an opportunity to try and unlearn some bad habits and so far I've managed to sort out how I hold my pick after a mere 35 years.  But I am feeling the benefit in terms of precision.
The next thing I am looking at is my picking when I play my scales, and I have noticed that I am not always using strict alternate picking and that I will continue with a down pick when I am moving to the next string (ascending scale) e.g. I am playing an E shape major scale and I will play:

(E string) down up
(A string) down up down
(D string) down...

Clearly it's not alternate but for me (at the moment) it flows more to continue the down stroke to the next string.  Is this another bad habit?  What are the benefits of keeping to strict alternate picking?  I am overthinking?  Any comments / thoughts appreciated

I've just tried it and i do exactly the same ... because it's the most economic way of picking I think and I'm not sure strict alt picking there would improve anything ..... i'm certainly more than happy with the speed I can pick using the double down stroke

@Danny1969 if you have the time, watch the Lee Anderson / Justin video from 09:30 mins and Justin explains the benefits of the strictly alternate approach.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQV0T2TX-4k&list=PLlwfspJqZ127PEVZfWoHP80BAC79cXUOw&index=5&t=2445s

hollywoodrox

It can help to organise your scale so that you are always picking an even number of notes per string So if there are three notes on the first string you could repeat them , if you start with a down pick you will be going into a downpick on the next string so it will be easier .

caged scales are usually laid out mainly with three notes per string and one or two strings that only have 2 notes , so you need to pick the 3 note ones twice and the two note strings can be left as they are or doubled or trebled. Someone else could explain it better.

its just that it sets your pick up for the best position when you change strings.

check out some alternate picking YouTube stuff from Ben Ellen or Ben Higgins , Troy Grady etc 
Someone else may explain better than me

Lewy

mgaw said:

bluegrass players have pick technique down to a fine art. perhaps check out how they approach it...Brian Sutton seems a good teacher

The critical thing about the bluegrass way is not only is it strict down up down up, but it's linked to the beat - so always down on the down beat and up on the upbeat. So your picking hand is in constant down up motion regardless of what you're doing, keeping time like a metronome, and your playing has a natural pulse courtesy of the downbeats being naturally a bit stronger. And also it means you don;t have to get into all the hassle of arranging patterns for your fretting hand - you're free to do whatever you want there.

The disadvantages are that it doesn't work for triplets and so you have to break the pattern for them, and you find yourself having to do a lot of inside picking. As far as speed is concerned, even the most burning bluegrass players would only be getting into what you'd consider moderately tempo territory in shredder world. It doesn't matter because they're not after that - bluegrass requires the kind of focus on acoustic tone and projection that means you can't play lightly enough to get that fast. Give Guthrie Govan a D28 strung with .013s and tell him he needed to be audible over a banjo and he wouldn't be able to do it either

Interestingly, the godfather of modern bluegrass guitar that everyone is trying to sound like - Tony Rice - completely breaks with this system and would play a scale exactly how the OP is describing they do it now....so maybe just go with what works for you!

GeeJay

I agree with the general sentiment that if it works for you and lets you do what you want to be able to, then there’s no right or wrong.

In terms of the pure alternate picking vs economy picking discussion, the way I try to see it is about giving yourself as many options as possible in a given situation.

For example in the original example of ‘down up down’ on the A string, if you are only able to economy pick then the only place you can go is to the D string with a down pick - i.e. the place you go next is dictated by the direction of the last pick movement. However if you are able to use full alternate picking then the up pick could go either to the D string OR back up to the E string. So you now have more flexibility.

Using full alternate picking from A -> D would be outside picking, while deciding to go back up A -> E with an upstroke would be inside picking. If you can get these 2 patterns down then you can go from any string to any other string regardless of whether you’re on an up pick or a down pick.

Another thing this gives you is that it completely removes the need for any distinction between even or odd numbers of notes per string. It works for both. Whereas in the economy picking example you provide, you’re having to essentially change your picking style when moving between strings depending on if there are 2 or 3 notes per string. 

You can definitely try and always start your phrases specifically on a down stroke or an upstroke, and make sure you only play an even or odd number of notes to accommodate your habits, but sometimes you don’t know where a phrase will end up so it can be good to have the flexibility to go anywhere.

stratcat

My teacher always said  "you should be able to do it both ways". Sometimes one way is better than the other, it all depends on the musical consequence of what it is that you are trying to achieve.