Demonstrations in Peckham today -Black Lives Matter

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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27344
    quarky said:

    Don't forget though, there is black on blank racism too (as well as black on asian, asian on black, etc.). Racism isn't just white on black, or in fact, just a white thing, and I think that is the danger. It is like the comment above about football terraces. It is no good saying "don't make racist chants", because then people chant about something else (Munich, WW2, homosexuality, whatever). The aim should be to just make all the hate and nonsense unacceptable, not just funnel it into other directions. If your focus is too narrow, it is too easy to dismiss it.
    Wis’d.
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 16012
    Yes......if you give Racism a broad definition that's very true 
    In India for example the caste system is not technically racism but a form of multi level elitism although as an Indian friend said to me the other day ...." The Sikhs ......they're like your Irish " which kind of sums it up !
    It's endemic tribalism in all cultures and not always obvious to outsiders.....You will see it in Muslim Communities and Ultra Orthodox Judaism. Microcosmic .
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  • Rich210Rich210 Frets: 577
    @TTony well hopefully it was still readable!

    Like I said in my post about soft forms of racism, the imperceptible racism. That's the gentle hum in the background you described which I would see as a symptom of casual or blissful ignorance, either way it's one aspect which some people would never see as an issue, or consider racism. I would consider it racism. 

    The point of this thread is to have a conversation about why people in London are marching in solidarity so rather than dismiss their expression and right to protest as nonsense.  why don't you come up with some suggestions and if you can't go and find out. 

    I've read a few but not all on comments on here which seem to conclude it's better now than in the past as a way to discredit what they're doing. That to me is soft racism as it's in the context of a thread that's looking to understand why people are marching outside of Minnesota. As soon as a group of protesters are judged for their actions before they're understood, prejudice is in the driving seat. It's so automatic, it's imperceptible and many people wouldn't even consider it a form of racism. I personally think it's a very difficult topic for a lot people to talk about which on one level is a good thing because we know shame exists, and shame and guilt can be things worked through over time. But it's also a bad thing because of the difficulty some people have facing it but also in a society with many institutions being fermented in white cultural norms it's all to easy to slip back into ways coping that have dire consequences, which is a reason why millions of people are shouting 'i can't breathe'.  

    So my question to you is why are these people in Peckham protesting?
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27344
    Rich210 said:

    The point of this thread is to have a conversation about why people in London are marching in solidarity so rather than dismiss their expression and right to protest as nonsense. 
    I don’t think I’ve dismissed anything as nonsense.

    In fact (actual fact), I’ve been there, protesting, albeit in 78/79 as part of the RaR marches, when the BNP easily outnumbered the police, there to maintain “order”.  Somehow, all parties managed to avoid looting Bomd St.

    Rich210 said:
    I've read a few but not all on comments on here which seem to conclude it's better now than in the past as a way to discredit what they're doing.
    I have said that - better than it was - but that’s to contextualise and explain, not to discredit.  The resolution to racism, sexism, genderism (et al) is a journey, a process, something that takes time.  It’s not an on/off, is/isn’t decision point that we reach, resolve, and proceed in a different direction.

    That it’s better now is evidence that the journey is progressing in the right direction, that’s all.


    Rich210 said:

    So my question to you is why are these people in Peckham protesting?
    That, I don’t know.  I can assume.  I can put my own judgements and values on the situation, but I still won’t know.  I’d guess that there are many reasons and motivations.  But, I don’t know.

    Do you *know*?
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  • Rich210 said:
    @TTony well hopefully it was still readable!

    Like I said in my post about soft forms of racism, the imperceptible racism.

    Do you understand how having a non-falsifiable story puts all the cards in your hand and makes it very difficult to have dialogue with you?

    Bye!

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  • MattBansheeMattBanshee Frets: 1498
    Rich210 said:
    @TTony well hopefully it was still readable!

    Like I said in my post about soft forms of racism, the imperceptible racism.

    Do you understand how having a non-falsifiable story puts all the cards in your hand and makes it very difficult to have dialogue with you?
    Why would he want to have a dialogue with you? You've made it exceptionally clear that you are an alt-right fash with offensive racist viewpoints and you are worthy of nobody's time.
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27344
    Rich210 said:
    @TTony well hopefully it was still readable!

    Like I said in my post about soft forms of racism, the imperceptible racism.

    Do you understand how having a non-falsifiable story puts all the cards in your hand and makes it very difficult to have dialogue with you?
    You can still have dialogue.  It doesn’t have to conclude with an “ok, now I see I’m wrong and you’re right” true/false epiphany.
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  • WiresDreamDisastersWiresDreamDisasters Frets: 16664
    edited June 2020
    Rich210 said:
    @TTony well hopefully it was still readable!

    Like I said in my post about soft forms of racism, the imperceptible racism.

    Do you understand how having a non-falsifiable story puts all the cards in your hand and makes it very difficult to have dialogue with you?
    Why would he want to have a dialogue with you? You've made it exceptionally clear that you are an alt-right fash with offensive racist viewpoints and you are worthy of nobody's time.
    Total bunkum. And I'm flagging that for breach of rule 1 and personal attacks.

    Bye!

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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27344
    Rich210 said:
    @TTony well hopefully it was still readable!

    Like I said in my post about soft forms of racism, the imperceptible racism.

    Do you understand how having a non-falsifiable story puts all the cards in your hand and makes it very difficult to have dialogue with you?
    Why would he want to have a dialogue with you? You've made it exceptionally clear that you are an alt-right fash with offensive racist viewpoints and you are worthy of nobody's time.
    I knew I’d forgotten an -ism.
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  • TTony said:
    Rich210 said:
    @TTony well hopefully it was still readable!

    Like I said in my post about soft forms of racism, the imperceptible racism.

    Do you understand how having a non-falsifiable story puts all the cards in your hand and makes it very difficult to have dialogue with you?
    You can still have dialogue.  It doesn’t have to conclude with an “ok, now I see I’m wrong and you’re right” true/false epiphany.
    Agree. And I agree with your statement that it's a process. But when you start inventing invisible phenomenon that are impossible to measure, it makes it ... well... impossible to talk about!

    And talk is what all of the great civil rights leaders of history did and wanted us to all do. It's what the family of George Floyd want us to do. The only people who don't are the ideologically possessed - whether they be antifa or racist white supremacists.

    Bye!

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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27344
    But when you start inventing invisible phenomenon that are impossible to measure, it makes it ... well... impossible to talk about!
    .
    Unfortunately, the “invisible phenomenon” just obfuscates.  You have to get past that, and transform the invisible into something more tangible and evidenced.  

    But it’s all a journey ...
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  • Rich210Rich210 Frets: 577
    @TTony I think society is in a very difficult position at the moment, I didn't live through the 70s so what I know of historical racism/culture wars is through books and listening to people like yourself. 

    Why do I think they're happening? I think they're happening for a few reasons. Like I said in my previous post racism in the UK is still a real thing sadly. Mass cultural protests have clearly resonated with people over the world for similar reasons, after all this isn't just about a single lynching, there's deep personal anger of being suffocated in a society while people of a different colour can breath easier.

    I'd also imagine that people of all races white and black will be deeply affected and concerned about what's going on in America and would want to show support against mass oppression of a historically close international ally. I'm really shocked by what's going on there. The violence is horrific and has become amplified on either side. 

    I could easily see myself in that march as well because its a symbolic message to our nationalist leaders that is important to get across. I'd march because of the windrush scandal. I'd march because of the immigration detention centres and very troubling removals recently. I'd march because of Grenfell. I'd march because of Stephen Laurence. And I'd march for kids that got sucked into countylines like a hoover in recent years. There's a lot of things that spring to my mind as to why I would march. Other people would have different reasons. And they're all similar themes.

    There are also a lot of Americans in London that might want to join in in solidarity with their friends in America. 

    Surrounding this is clearly Donald Trump, he's a reason to protest in and of itself. Fuck him!
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    Dominic said:
    Somebody famous (can't remember who ) said  "America is more Racist than South Africa ever was "

    Then they were an idiot.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27344
    Rich210 said:
    after all this isn't just about a single lynching,
    That really is a unnecessarily silly word to use.  It’s way too emotive to have any place in rational discussion and, IMHO, diminishes the experience of those who were lynched.

    Rich210 said:
    there's deep personal anger of being suffocated in a society while people of a different colour can breath easier.
    Skin colour doesn’t explain looting, in which skin colour seems to be reasonably fairly represented on both sides.  One death, albeit twittered, does not explain what’s happening in the US now.  It’s being used as the excuse, and so devalues that integrity of the protests.  Sadly.
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27344

    Rich210 said:

    I could easily see myself in that march as well because its a symbolic message to our nationalist leaders that is important to get across. I'd march because of the windrush scandal. I'd march because of the immigration detention centres and very troubling removals recently. I'd march because of Grenfell. I'd march because of Stephen Laurence. And I'd march for kids that got sucked into countylines like a hoover in recent years. There's a lot of things that spring to my mind as to why I would march. Other people would have different reasons. And they're all similar themes.

    Marching is pretty pointless really.  Unless you want to burn some calories.  Ask the millions who marched against the war in Iraq, or Brexit.  Completely ineffectual.

    Yes, I marched.  It made be feel like I was “doing something”.  Far better to actually do something positive, constructive, and which will make a difference.  Feeling better about yourself doesn’t count.


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  • TTony said:

    Rich210 said:

    I could easily see myself in that march as well because its a symbolic message to our nationalist leaders that is important to get across. I'd march because of the windrush scandal. I'd march because of the immigration detention centres and very troubling removals recently. I'd march because of Grenfell. I'd march because of Stephen Laurence. And I'd march for kids that got sucked into countylines like a hoover in recent years. There's a lot of things that spring to my mind as to why I would march. Other people would have different reasons. And they're all similar themes.

    Marching is pretty pointless really.  Unless you want to burn some calories.  Ask the millions who marched against the war in Iraq, or Brexit.  Completely ineffectual.

    Yes, I marched.  It made be feel like I was “doing something”.  Far better to actually do something positive, constructive, and which will make a difference.  Feeling better about yourself doesn’t count.


    I don't think marches are pointless as such. They echo through time and show us what struggles were about.

    Bye!

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601

    octatonic said:
    capo4th said:
    Racism unfortunately goes both ways. 
    This is, frankly, an ugly sentiment.
    When was the last time you had your "whiteness" used as a reason to be stopped by the authorities, questioned, harassed and maybe roughed up a little?

    I am betting on 'never'.


    By the police? The problem is in London and other cities there are certain crimes that tend to be committed by black people - check the stats. The police would stop and search more black males than white and were accused of racism so they stopped. The result was more black boys died due to knife crime - white liberals forced the police to stop a policy that helped save lives over wokeness and racism.

    An article by Trevor Phillips in the Telegraph/Daily Mail in 2018:

    Police officers should be exempt from race discrimination laws in order to target black youths in high crime areas, the  former chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) has said.

    Trevor Phillips said that "white liberals" need to stop "hand-wringing" and admit the truth that the wave of knife crime is black children killing black children.

    He called for officers to target high-risk inner-city areas and to be exempt from laws which prevent them discriminating on the basis of someone's race or ethnic origin.

    Police dealing with gangs also need to be given greater powers akin to anti-terror laws which would allow them to detain the leaders who give the orders rather than wielding the knife, Mr Phillips said.

    The comments come amid a rising wave of violence which has seen 250 stabbing deaths in the UK this year, with five of those murders occurring in London in the past nine days.

    Describing the dead as "sacrifices in an unwinnable war", Mr Phillips said that the political response had been "pathetic" and too focused on police numbers when there is no evidence that this will help.

    Writing in the Mail on Sunday, he said: "First we need to be clear about who is dying and who is doing the killing, and we must be honest that there is a racial component to the violence."

    The deaths are taking place in the semi-ghettos of Britain's big cities which are home to refugees many of whom are traumatised by the warfare that they have escaped and feel a sense of belonging by joining gangs, he said.

    Adding: "So the forlorn attempts by politicians and media to ignore this truth - to avoid 'stigmatising' minority communities - has been counterproductive, a hand-wringing dereliction of responsibility.

    "It might make 'right-on' white liberals feel better. But the price of their smugness is an ongoing bloody massacre of black children with a casualty list that seems to lengthen by the day."

    The son of poor immigrant parents, he said that whilst violence is nothing new the knuckle dusters and bricks he encountered in his youth in north London have been replaced by  a "a lethal armoury of knives, swords, handguns and, occasionally, automatic rifles - some in the hands of children as young as ten".

    He called for high risk zones to be identified and flooded with officers "using stop-and-search powers as freely as they wish".

    Stop-and-search powers have long attracted controversy amid claims that they are used to unfairly target black men.

    The intervention comes after Cressida Dick,  the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, used an interview with the Telegraph to call for the police to be able to use high tech surveillance methods such as facial recognition technology to crack down on crime.

    Mr Philips backed her call, saying that if it helps then "fretting about privacy from people whose families are in no danger should be ignored".

    He added: "In areas where the gangs are primarily black or from another ethnic group, police might even be permitted to apply for exemption from race discrimination laws for a limited period. This could free their hands to act against specific targets - and few would be more pleased than minority parents who constantly worry that their children may never come home."

    In order to ensure that this was done fairly all officers should be be fitted with a bodyworn camera, he argued.

    He also called for further powers to be extended to prison governors, to prevent gangs consolidating their control over behind bars.

    The former boss of the ECHR said that rather than spending time and money on "pointless" campaigns about social media hate crimes and instead focus resources on helping those trapped inside the cycle of violence.

    He  suggested at risk families should be relocated and bright young children at danger of joining gangs should be sent to boarding schools.

    He also suggested offering incentives such as a council tax "holiday" to families who would move into at risk areas to change the social make-up and disrupt gangs.



    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Fretwired said:

    octatonic said:
    capo4th said:
    Racism unfortunately goes both ways. 
    This is, frankly, an ugly sentiment.
    When was the last time you had your "whiteness" used as a reason to be stopped by the authorities, questioned, harassed and maybe roughed up a little?

    I am betting on 'never'.

    By the police? The problem is in London and other cities there are certain crimes that tend to be committed by black people - check the stats. The police would stop and search more black males than white and were accused of racism so they stopped. The result was more black boys died due to knife crime - white liberals forced the police to stop a policy that helped save lives over wokeness and racism.

    I'm not disputing what you are saying and I would defend the police for stopping people based on the probability of a finding an actual criminal but that isn't the whole story either.

    I guess I can imagine (to a degree) what it must be like to be regularly stopped and harangued by the Police based on the colour of my skin too. I don't imagine that is very pleasant.
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  • Rich210Rich210 Frets: 577
    @TTony apologies for that! I was too casual with that thanks for pointing that out. I personally see the looting as a symptom of poverty more than anything else. With cv19 there's a lot more people on the breadline in America, and a lot of people that have got to the point where they might feel like they haven't got much to loose which just shows the desperation of people. All out looting in the moment of delierius drunken rage. The stoic philosopher seneca said 'never trust yourself in a crowd'. I think a lot of people would be regretting what they did and were more or less out of control, clearly some took advantage of the situation but others again might have had an uncontrollable cathartic moment and need for power and control which what burning cars buildings and police stations might have temporarily gave them.
    Perhaps mostly a big fuck you to authority I think. We'll have to see what's happening tomorrow but I get the impression less buildings are being set on fire. And the overwhelming majority are peaceful protesters. You're right though, the conservative media would just pick up on 'crime' rather than the crimes against black people attributable to ostensibly white police which is why it's all kicking off! I'm off to get some kip buddy! Good debating! 
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  • I agree with these demands, concepts, ideas, whatever you wanna call them.

    You hear the old-timers often talk about how they KNEW the names of the police who patrolled their block when they were young, and the police knew theirs. I'm not delusional enough to think ahhhhhh those halcyon dayssssss but it seems to me there has been an increasing disconnect from the police and the communities they patrol. The emphasis has been on techno-gadget wizardy rather than talking to people. Condemnation and imprisonment rather than rehabilitation.

    As a society we really need to get to a place where we see each other not as the enemy, but as potential friends and allies. We need to stop judging each other on immutable characteristics, how much money we earn, our jobs, our hobbies, our socio-economic backgrounds, and so on.

    Bye!

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