who do you think are the musical geniuses?

octatonic

In the last 100 years or so:

Zappa
Coltrane
Miles
Cage
Stravinsky
Schoenberg
Glass
Boulez
Stockhausen
Gershwin.

blobb

yeah Zappa definitely, there's a video of Ruth Underwood talking about him, can't remember where, explaining the stuff that set him apart.

The more I get into Vin Garbutt the more I see genius.

From my own particular genre of interest (Canterbury scene) Robert Wyatt and Alan Gowan.

guitars4you

Musicwolf said:

guitars4you said:

Porter, Berlin and Gershwin are considered 3 of the greatest song writers, I haven't got my memory notes with me now but I recall one of them can barely play

It was Berlin

I remember watching a documentary about him.  He could only play in one key and he had a piano whereby he could change key with a lever.

Thanks - I knew it was one of them - This is were my dad would have come into play and would have known instantly 

PolarityMan

RobDavies said:

Townshend.   

Which one?

GavRichList

PolarityMan said:

RobDavies said:

Townshend.   

Which one?

I imagine its the one with the booming trade in "online research".

Where's this book then Pete?

octatonic

PolarityMan said:

RobDavies said:

Townshend.   

Which one?

He means Pete, I think.
I'd argue that Devin is more deserving.

PolarityMan

octatonic said:

PolarityMan said:

RobDavies said:

Townshend.   

Which one?

He means Pete, I think.
I'd argue that Devin is more deserving.

Likewise but I was wondering how much of that is actually just the way he presents himself..although he is ridiculously prolific.

What's the opinion on Jacob Collier? Watching him talk about music is fascinating but I cant make it more than a couple of minutes into any of his actual songs. To me its kind of like the equivilent the chemical engineer who develops better dulux trying to paint the Sistine chapel. He has a ridiculously rich understanding of the relationship between tones but no actual sense of aesthetic. 

octatonic

PolarityMan said:

octatonic said:

PolarityMan said:

RobDavies said:

Townshend.   

Which one?

He means Pete, I think.
I'd argue that Devin is more deserving.

Likewise but I was wondering how much of that is actually just the way he presents himself..although he is ridiculously prolific.

What's the opinion on Jacob Collier? Watching him talk about music is fascinating but I cant make it more than a couple of minutes into any of his actual songs. To me its kind of like the equivilent the chemical engineer who develops better dulux trying to paint the Sistine chapel. He has a ridiculously rich understanding of the relationship between tones but no actual sense of aesthetic. 

Collier- he's clearly an impressive musician but I am not particularly into it as music to listen to for pleasure.

20 years ago it might have been more a thing I'd want to listen to because at that time I was interested in music that demonstrates virtuosity above pretty much everything else.
I'm just not so much into that now.

fields5069

I think genius is an over-used term. Most people are re-hashing techniques and compositions from years ago. I guess the true geniuses are people whose music you don't necessarily enjoy. I'm pretty sure Scott Walker was a genius, but I'm buggered if I can listen to much of his more recent output. Someone with dexterity, application, knowledge, and taste is not someone I would consider a genius.

PolarityMan

fields5069 said:

I think genius is an over-used term. Most people are re-hashing techniques and compositions from years ago. I guess the true geniuses are people whose music you don't necessarily enjoy. I'm pretty sure Scott Walker was a genius, but I'm buggered if I can listen to much of his more recent output. Someone with dexterity, application, knowledge, and taste is not someone I would consider a genius.

I can understand that. I don't think music is something to be "solved" analytically* and I think a close match to someones personal taste is far more important than the kind of properties you would normally associate with "genius".

Incidentally for me I wouldn't necessarily equate virtuosity with genius, I'd view it as more removed from the physical capability with an instrument. 

What about artists who's genius isn't actually directly related to the music. David Bowie's reinvention and use of image for example obviously emulated and further refined by the like of Marilyn Manson? Certainly I'd consider that part of Bowie's work more noteworthy than his music (which largely I do also like).

*If that is not true then why is computer generated music a huge pile of balls generally?

stimpsonslostson

Taking the definition of Genius literally:

Bruce Dickinson
Singer of Iron Maiden
Professional airline pilot
Highly ranked fencer
His reported IQ is apparently 167. 

Greg Graffin of Bad Religion is a Professor at UC Davis. I've read lots of his scientific publications & never drew the connection until I read his autobiography! 

Dexter from the Offspring achieved a PhD in Molecular Biology for research on HIV and is also an airline pilot. 

Brian May & Brian Cox are other obvious examples. 

Dodge

stimpsonslostson said:

Taking the definition of Genius literally:

Bruce Dickinson
Singer of Iron Maiden
Professional airline pilot
Highly ranked fencer
His reported IQ is apparently 167. 

Greg Graffin of Bad Religion is a Professor at UC Davis. I've read lots of his scientific publications & never drew the connection until I read his autobiography! 

Dexter from the Offspring achieved a PhD in Molecular Biology for research on HIV and is also an airline pilot. 

Brian May & Brian Cox are other obvious examples. 

As an ex-airline transport pilot licence holder, I am proof that being an airline pilot doesn't require genius!

stimpsonslostson

@Dodge I bow to your experience. 
Funnily enough, I've spent my entire professional life working with folk with PhDs. Genius is common, common sense less so! ;-)

Snap

Trent Reznor - the variety and depth of his recordings from brutal industrial noise right through metal, electro, ambient to amazing soundtracks show a level of musical ability that is hard to match IMO, in terms of modern recording artists.

ESBlonde

There are many great composers and musicians, many who were shooting stars and a very few who remaine(d) prolific throughout thier long lives. In recent times that has to include but not restricted to:

Macca

Nile Rogers

Prince

Elton John

Of course many who joined the '27' club or similar couldn't claim that badge, and others have written/played some fantastic material over the years, it's just a rare thing to do it into pension age having started as a teenager.

Commercial success has to be considerred as a measure too, if few people appreciate it are you doing it right? Eric Clapton for example has had a long distinguished career and even written some great songs, but musical genius is not a monica I would bestow on him.

Without criteria we all just tend to list our favourite musicians. There are some great names listed above.

octatonic

Bowie would have to be in there too.

scrumhalf

Stevie Wonder

Ray Charles

Les Paul

Leo Fender

Jimi Hendrix

I think that genius goes beyond innovation and leaves things very different afterwards.

fields5069

stimpsonslostson said:

Taking the definition of Genius literally:

Bruce Dickinson
Singer of Iron Maiden
Professional airline pilot
Highly ranked fencer
His reported IQ is apparently 167. 

Greg Graffin of Bad Religion is a Professor at UC Davis. I've read lots of his scientific publications & never drew the connection until I read his autobiography! 

Dexter from the Offspring achieved a PhD in Molecular Biology for research on HIV and is also an airline pilot. 

Brian May & Brian Cox are other obvious examples. 

Proof, if proof be need be, that you can be a genius AND shit at music.

DarnWeight

Brian Eno

Rocker

fields5069 said:

I think genius is an over-used term. Most people are re-hashing techniques and compositions from years ago. I guess the true geniuses are people whose music you don't necessarily enjoy. I'm pretty sure Scott Walker was a genius, but I'm buggered if I can listen to much of his more recent output. Someone with dexterity, application, knowledge, and taste is not someone I would consider a genius.

In in that case I add Enya.