Questions about tuning down for supernerds

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Tex MexicoTex Mexico Frets: 1196
Hi guys,

I have a new/old PRS I want to put into one of three tunings, depending on my level of success:

1. Baritone standard - BEADF#B (sometimes drop-A)
2. C# standard - C#F#BEAbC# (sometimes drop-B)
3. Custom - B????E (hybrid tuning to be developed running from baritone bass end to standard top end)

My questions:

1. Does anyone know the thickest string gauge a PRS Phase 1 tuner will accommodate? I don't have the right measuring tool to hand and I don't really want to modify the tuner or waste money on sets of strings I can't get in there.

2. Are the "affordable" (like £10 for a set) nut files on eBay any good or do you need to shell out for expensive? Or is there another tool that works just as well but isn't labelled "guitar nut file"? Links would be handy please if you know any.

3. The PRS is 25" scale and I like my strings quite taut, like a .048-.011 at standard tuning. In the above tunings, what gauges would I need to get that kind of feel?

4. I'm told that anything over .020 unwound is basically unfit for purpose. I'm accordingly looking at the Mammoth Slinky (12-62) set which has a wound 3rd string, or a Power Slinky 7-string set and toss the 1st string (14-58), so also a wound 3rd string. Am I making too much of this? I still want to get decent resonance and sustain across the board and I've deliberately excluded the Not Even Slinky set which looks good but has a plain .024 3rd, which I've seen people say is no good.

5. The above sets would be for tunings 1 & 2. For tuning 3 I'm looking at a Skinny Top Beefy Bottom set, which is 10-13-17-32-44-54. Is .054 still too light to get a good tight pull in A or B at 25" scale?

Thanks in advance for your help.
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Comments

  • I know nothing at all about downtuning, but I can tell you that Newtone will let you order strings individually, so you could specify the exact guages you want rather than having to compromise.
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  • skunkwerxskunkwerx Frets: 6838
    I cant say much, but this one time I put beefy slinkys , or something to that effect, on an Ltd kh-202 and tuned to drop c and the plain g sounded absolutely unusable open or fretted.

    The remedy was a wound g, but I think my reading at the time suggested scale length played a part in it too, though I’m not actually sure if it wasnt just it being a thick plain string in itself tbh! 
    The only easy day, was yesterday...
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  • JetfireJetfire Frets: 1687
    There are alot of string tension guides online which can help the tension. I recently offered up a .60 to my Ibanez RGA121 (which has a funny top loading bridge and  I couldnt for the life of me get it through it, let alone getting it into the tuner (which as it goes was fine). However, any massive jump in string guage would obviously need to have the nut filed to accomodate etc.  

    I detuned the same RGA (25.5) with a 10 - 48 onto it to a baritone B tuning and it sounded pretty good. However, the was a massive drop in tension as expected. My 26.5 scale 6 string has 12 - 60 strings on it and I have found that its good but an extra inch is always good (so Ive been told) 

    Conclusion, on a 25 inch scale, I would expect a 0.54 to be ok to get onto the guitar at C# tuning and tension be ok. However, anything less than that tension probably you wouldnt enjoy. 

    My recommendation is to get a longer scale if tension is a deal breaker.  Squier have released a baritone (27 inch) Cab for £350, Subzero do a 27 and 30 inch scale for around £200.        

    Id also suggest considering a pick up change too as the thickers strings may sound different on your current pick ups but thats your preference!
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    Hi guys,

    I have a new/old PRS I want to put into one of three tunings, depending on my level of success:

    1. Baritone standard - BEADF#B (sometimes drop-A)
    2. C# standard - C#F#BEAbC# (sometimes drop-B)
    3. Custom - B????E (hybrid tuning to be developed running from baritone bass end to standard top end)

    My questions:

    1. Does anyone know the thickest string gauge a PRS Phase 1 tuner will accommodate? I don't have the right measuring tool to hand and I don't really want to modify the tuner or waste money on sets of strings I can't get in there.

    2. Are the "affordable" (like £10 for a set) nut files on eBay any good or do you need to shell out for expensive? Or is there another tool that works just as well but isn't labelled "guitar nut file"? Links would be handy please if you know any.

    3. The PRS is 25" scale and I like my strings quite taut, like a .048-.011 at standard tuning. In the above tunings, what gauges would I need to get that kind of feel?

    4. I'm told that anything over .020 unwound is basically unfit for purpose. I'm accordingly looking at the Mammoth Slinky (12-62) set which has a wound 3rd string, or a Power Slinky 7-string set and toss the 1st string (14-58), so also a wound 3rd string. Am I making too much of this? I still want to get decent resonance and sustain across the board and I've deliberately excluded the Not Even Slinky set which looks good but has a plain .024 3rd, which I've seen people say is no good.

    5. The above sets would be for tunings 1 & 2. For tuning 3 I'm looking at a Skinny Top Beefy Bottom set, which is 10-13-17-32-44-54. Is .054 still too light to get a good tight pull in A or B at 25" scale?

    Thanks in advance for your help.
    I have done several standard-scale baritone conversions...

    1. If the string won't fit in the tuner, you can unwind enough of the outer wrap so that it ends before the machinehead. I've had to do that on a couple of baritone conversions - a bit of a faff, but you don't need to change the strings very often usually.

    2. You can use toolmakers' needle files for the larger gauges, or adapt hacksaw blades by hammering them flat and grinding the edges, but they require a fair bit more care to use than proper files.

    3. BEADF#B is easy - that starts at the same gauge you would normally use for your B (2nd) string, because it's the same string! Just in a different position - as are all the first five (the G goes down to F#, but it won't really matter) - so you can use the bottom five strings from your normal set of 11s and add a low B. I find about a 65 works well - you can adapt a double-ball-end bass string by cutting off the *big* (bass size) ball end and using the small (guitar size) one.

    C# probably needs a gauge lighter, so start at a 13 and use the standard 10 gauges, probably with a 60 or so for the low C#.

    The hybrid set you can work out from what would be the closest strings to the notes you're tuning to, and go up or down a little if the pitch is lower or higher.

    4. You want a wound 3rd, yes. I once did an A-A baritone Tele which needed a wound (22 gauge) 2nd. I know some of the down-tuning people do use a plain 3rd, but for me anything below D standard just sounds bad with one.

    5. Probably too light.

    Hope that helps!

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14323
    PRS Phase 1 ‘heads grip each string between a flat area machined on the post and another on the “wing collar” bit. The maximum aperture looks like 1.5mm (60 thou. for cash) in the slack/release position.

    To accommodate larger strings, it would be necessary to remove more steel from the flat spot on the tuning post. This may weaken the post.



    @Jetfire makes two good points, both based on practical research experience. Firstly, that increased scale length aids string tension. Secondly, about pickups. 

    Over decades of mangling electric guitars and basses, it has usually been the case that attempts to impose my will on an instrument turn out unsuccessfully. Trial, error and repeated listening out for what works on any specific instrument tend to yield better results.

    I can not tell you how to spend your disposable income. OTOH, I do suggest that you seek a guitar that has been designed from scratch for your intended purpose.

    Check out the PRS SE series demonstration videos for the 277, Holcombe and Holcombe SVN. One of these models even has the signature Seymour Duncan humbuckers. 
    Be seeing you.
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  • skullfunkerryskullfunkerry Frets: 4136
    PRS Phase 1 ‘heads grip each string between a flat area machined on the post and another on the “wing collar” bit. The maximum aperture looks like 1.5mm (60 thou. for cash) in the slack/release position.

    To accommodate larger strings, it would be necessary to remove more steel from the flat spot on the tuning post. This may weaken the post.



    @Jetfire makes two good points, both based on practical research experience. Firstly, that increased scale length aids string tension. Secondly, about pickups. 

    Over decades of mangling electric guitars and basses, it has usually been the case that attempts to impose my will on an instrument turn out unsuccessfully. Trial, error and repeated listening out for what works on any specific instrument tend to yield better results.

    I can not tell you how to spend your disposable income. OTOH, I do suggest that you seek a guitar that has been designed from scratch for your intended purpose.

    Check out the PRS SE series demonstration videos for the 277, Holcombe and Holcombe SVN. One of these models even has the signature Seymour Duncan humbuckers. 
    I certainly can’t help with the string tension stuff, but I have a PRS SE Holcomb. Apparently it comes as standard with 10-46s on, tuned to drop C. I bought mine second hand and it was tuned to concert, but now I have it (and both of my other guitars) in drop C with 10-52s on. Scale length is 25.5”, but as Funkfingers said I think the SVN has a longer scale length.

    I suspect that my strings would probably feel quite a bit slacker than yours do, but they’re certainly not hanging off the guitar, I don’t have any problems with tuning or intonation.

    Not actually sure how much help I’ve been here...
    Too much gain... is just about enough \m/

    I'm probably the only member of this forum mentioned by name in Whiskey in the Jar ;)

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  • Tex MexicoTex Mexico Frets: 1196
    I guess based on input so far, it seems I forgot a question:

    Is this even a good idea?

    The guitar is really, properly good, so am I just wasting my time trying to make it do something it wasn't intended to do? Should I be limiting it to drop C# and just looking at a dedicated baritone or 7-string for my expeditions into lower registers?

    As always thanks everyone for your valuable comments.
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  • TTBZTTBZ Frets: 2873
    edited June 2020
    You could always go as low as you can without being impossible to setup then use a Digitech Drop to go the rest of the way. Not always an ideal solution but cheaper than a new guitar and it works flawlessly in my experience.
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  • prlgmnrprlgmnr Frets: 3964
    Loads of people/bands have used 25.5 or even 24.75 scale guitars in B standard or Drop A, it's certainly doable and usable.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    The Tele conversions I’ve done worked perfectly. Other guitars, more variable - I think the rigidity of the Tele works in its favour and stops it sounding undefined as a baritone. The only irreversible mod is the nut, and if you’re careful to shape the grooves properly they will still take standard gauges again.

    It’s worth saying this again for any naysayers - a standard guitar is *already* a baritone on the bottom five strings. All you’re doing is moving them over one position and substituting a low B for the high E... so if the guitar will handle the low B it will work fine.

    Longer scale lengths do help slightly, but aren’t actually necessary unless you’re going even lower, down into what is really 6-string bass (E-E) territory.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Tex MexicoTex Mexico Frets: 1196
    Thanks again guys. I've taken the executive decision to get a set of burly slinkys and a set of skinny top/heavy bottom and see how low the guitar will comfortably go with those on board. If it works well I'll experiment further with bigger gauges and lower tunings, or if I like it I'll stick there and maybe look at getting a baritone and/or 7-string to further explore lower registers. I think key is I don't want to modify the guitar beyond maybe nut slots as it's already really good, and the stock HFS/VB pickups are so nice I don't want to lose the benefit by using strings they're not voiced for.

    As an aside, I do very much like this forum and the people on it, you guys always have helpful and constructive solutions for my questions. Nice one.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    Longer necks (over 25.5 inches) will accommodate ridiculously low tunings better (lower than b).

    I play in drop a# at the lowest on a 24.75 inch scale neck and use 12-56's. It just about holds up!
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  • grungebobgrungebob Frets: 3300
    The phase 1 tuner barely fits a 58. 
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 7953
    edited June 2020
    I guess based on input so far, it seems I forgot a question:

    Is this even a good idea?

    The guitar is really, properly good, so am I just wasting my time trying to make it do something it wasn't intended to do? Should I be limiting it to drop C# and just looking at a dedicated baritone or 7-string for my expeditions into lower registers?

    As always thanks everyone for your valuable comments.

    Different people are going to give you different answers, based on their tastes and playing styles.

    Answering purely from my own experience I think 25" is a bit short for tunings below C, if you want tight string tension and the low string to have a bright attack.  And especially if you pick quite hard (I do for some of the music I make).

    Yes you can put a thicker low string on but at a certain point the attack of the low string starts getting duller, and again at another point gets very different sounding to the other strings.  This isn't necessarily bad but it's something to be aware of and it depends if you like it.  The trade-off for using a thinner brighter sounding string at lower tunings on shorter scales is you get a larger pitch arc when you pick hard (as in the string goes quite sharp, then decays flatter).  That can sound cool in some genres, but could also sound kind of out of tune in others.

    I've found that after .060 things start sounding different, and at .066 and beyond the sixth string has a totally different attack to the rest of the wound strings.  Also the thicker you go the quicker the low string loses the top end as it is used.

    For a few years I was using the D'Addario 11-56 set and swapping out the 56 for a .064 or .066, with a medium action, but now I've got evertunes installed on my main guitars and I don't need to swap in a thicker low string.

    I did put an evertune on my Singlecut, right now it has 12-60 strings on in drop B with a nice comfortable action and I can play it as hard as I fancy and it won't sound sharp.  I've not put an evertune on my Les Paul and I think it currently has a .072 low B on it which is nice for tension but changes the vibe quite a bit.

    The guitarist from Bring Me The Horizon uses a .080 for his low A# string on his Les Paul from what I understand.

    I do make music where the guitars get used against synths so I prefer my guitars to sound as in tune as possible, again this might not apply if you don't make that kind of music or want a different vibe.
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 7953
    ICBM said:
    The Tele conversions I’ve done worked perfectly. Other guitars, more variable - I think the rigidity of the Tele works in its favour and stops it sounding undefined as a baritone. The only irreversible mod is the nut, and if you’re careful to shape the grooves properly they will still take standard gauges again.

    It’s worth saying this again for any naysayers - a standard guitar is *already* a baritone on the bottom five strings. All you’re doing is moving them over one position and substituting a low B for the high E... so if the guitar will handle the low B it will work fine.

    Longer scale lengths do help slightly, but aren’t actually necessary unless you’re going even lower, down into what is really 6-string bass (E-E) territory.

    Neck rigidity is a factor for sure for helping with the lower tuned notes. If you look at the design of several metal focused brands necks are often multi laminate or reinforced in some way. In my experience it does help but also Telecasters do handle it well too.

    While you can tune low on standard scales it won’t sound the same as doing it on a baritone, the longer scale does change the voicing and also the different string gauges needed will change the tone and pitch arc (in combination with the scale). From what I’m noticing some genres of modern low tuned music are more commonly done on longer scales than others.

    Another thing is that while bands will use low tuned standard scale instruments live they sometimes used baritones in the studio, which further confuses the matter
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 7953

    grungebob said:
    The phase 1 tuner barely fits a 58. 
    I’ve found this with other locking tuners too, locking Rotomatics on my Les Paul would only just fit an .059, so my sixth tuner is a non locking one right now to fit heavier strings 
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