Fender John Cruz

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  • adampeteradampeter Frets: 775
    prlgmnr said:
    I'm not offended. I didn't say I was offended. I specifically said this wasn't about being offended.
    Correct,you said "more serious than being offended"
    What is that?
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  • prlgmnrprlgmnr Frets: 3964
    You know, people being murdered in the street, that sort of thing. You might have noticed a couple of people out and about protesting it.
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  • adampeteradampeter Frets: 775
    prlgmnr said:
    You know, people being murdered in the street, that sort of thing. You might have noticed a couple of people out and about protesting it.
    Sorry i thought this thread was about John Cruz, has he been out murdering people in the streets again?
    Our are we not allowed to make light of the protests?
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  • adampeteradampeter Frets: 775
    edited June 2020
    Sorry @prlgmnr , your comments didn't update in order this end, i think we actually agree on most points
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    adampeter said:
    prlgmnr said:
    You know, people being murdered in the street, that sort of thing. You might have noticed a couple of people out and about protesting it.
    Sorry i thought this thread was about John Cruz, has he been out murdering people in the streets again?
    Our are we not allowed to make light of the protests?

    You can choose to make light of the protests, but people can choose not to buy your products because they don't like you.

    A John Cruz Masterbuilt Strat is a product which is the pinnacle of Fenders product range and is now massively reduced in value with a very strong negative association.
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  • JetfireJetfire Frets: 1687
    adampeter said:
    Again the world has gone mad, bloke who works with his hands in a factory all day with other similar people has opinions and humour that shocks the worlds snowflakes, 
    In the words of Ricky Gervaix "just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right" 


    But it's fenders ball, and if they don't want to play with you because of stupid shit you post online, they can take that ball away, very publicly. And especially as he a named man at Fender.
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  • adampeteradampeter Frets: 775
    adampeter said:
    prlgmnr said:
    You know, people being murdered in the street, that sort of thing. You might have noticed a couple of people out and about protesting it.
    Sorry i thought this thread was about John Cruz, has he been out murdering people in the streets again?
    Our are we not allowed to make light of the protests?

    You can choose to make light of the protests, but people can choose not to buy your products because they don't like you.

    A John Cruz Masterbuilt Strat is a product which is the pinnacle of Fenders product range and is now massively reduced in value with a very strong negative association.
    I'm not making light, but people should be able to
    I disagree that a Cruz guitar will be reduced in value, if anything they will go up in value now that he's not making anymore
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  • LoobsLoobs Frets: 3831
    edited June 2020
    adampeter said:
    Again the world has gone mad, bloke who works with his hands in a factory all day with other similar people has opinions and humour that shocks the worlds snowflakes, 
    In the words of Ricky Gervaix "just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right"
    Would it be funny if you had friends or family directly affected by the situation or police brutality, or gassed while protesting? No, probably not. You might then be offended or perhaps even - heaven forbid - shocked. But it's ok cos in the white boys' club you can say what you want and all the snowflakes should shut the fuck up and laugh it off. 
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    adampeter said:
    adampeter said:
    prlgmnr said:
    You know, people being murdered in the street, that sort of thing. You might have noticed a couple of people out and about protesting it.
    Sorry i thought this thread was about John Cruz, has he been out murdering people in the streets again?
    Our are we not allowed to make light of the protests?

    You can choose to make light of the protests, but people can choose not to buy your products because they don't like you.

    A John Cruz Masterbuilt Strat is a product which is the pinnacle of Fenders product range and is now massively reduced in value with a very strong negative association.
    I'm not making light, but people should be able to
    I disagree that a Cruz guitar will be reduced in value, if anything they will go up in value now that he's not making anymore


    To clarify, this isn't a free speech issue.

    To use the Fulltone example:
    Fulltone are free to say whatever they like about BLM.
    Customers are free to react to that any way they choose to that communication.
    Guitar Centre are free to sever ties with Fulltone based on their customers opinions on Fulltone.

    At no point has anyone's right to free speech been impacted, but if you piss people off there are consequences.
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  • WhitecatWhitecat Frets: 5378
    Fender has already experienced a cautionary tale of a similar vibe that hurt their sales in Japan, and is obviously being very careful.

    Anyone remember this guitar from a couple years ago?

    https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/fender-mij-mahogany-offset-telecaster

    It was actually originally an artist model. Yojira Noda signature model, a Japanese guitarist in a band called Radwimps.

    Or at least it used to be. Here's an account of what happened that I borrowed from TGP - "around June, Noda released a new song titled "Hinomaru." "Hinomaru" is also what the Japanese flag is called. The song expresses Noda's love for his native country and uses some pseudo old-fashioned poetic language in reference to Japan. Some people in Japan felt this imagery and song subject resembled WWII propaganda songs, and interpreted it to mean that Noda held right-wing views. Noda apologized to those he had offended and said his views were not right-wing and that he only wished to express his love for his country. The fact that Noda included distinctly non-right-wing views in his autobiography two years ago, such as his love for Korea and his anger at the people who got Japan involved WWII, seems to support this claim."

    Nonetheless, the backlash hurt - Fender scrubbed their deal with him, took his name off the marketing and shipped most of the unsold guitars abroad to sell as a limited edition offset Tele. Those that remained in the country were no longer sold as Yojira Noda sigs, just as mahogany Telemasters.

    So I can understand why Fender would be very tetchy about this kind of stuff.
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  • prlgmnrprlgmnr Frets: 3964
    adampeter said:
    Sorry @prlgmnr , your comments didn't update in order this end, i think we actually agree on most points
    My fault for going back and editing after posting.
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  • adampeteradampeter Frets: 775
    Loobs said:
    adampeter said:
    Again the world has gone mad, bloke who works with his hands in a factory all day with other similar people has opinions and humour that shocks the worlds snowflakes, 
    In the words of Ricky Gervaix "just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right"
    Would it be funny if you had friends or family directly affected by the situation or police brutality, or gassed while protesting? No, probably not. You might then be offended or perhaps even - heaven forbid - shocked. But it's ok cos in the white boys' club you can say what you want and all the snowflakes should shut the fuck up and laugh it off. 
    How do you know i don't? How do you know my ethnic background?
    People need to get over themselves
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  • adampeteradampeter Frets: 775
    adampeter said:
    adampeter said:
    prlgmnr said:
    You know, people being murdered in the street, that sort of thing. You might have noticed a couple of people out and about protesting it.
    Sorry i thought this thread was about John Cruz, has he been out murdering people in the streets again?
    Our are we not allowed to make light of the protests?

    You can choose to make light of the protests, but people can choose not to buy your products because they don't like you.

    A John Cruz Masterbuilt Strat is a product which is the pinnacle of Fenders product range and is now massively reduced in value with a very strong negative association.
    I'm not making light, but people should be able to
    I disagree that a Cruz guitar will be reduced in value, if anything they will go up in value now that he's not making anymore


    To clarify, this isn't a free speech issue.

    To use the Fulltone example:
    Fulltone are free to say whatever they like about BLM.
    Customers are free to react to that any way they choose to that communication.
    Guitar Centre are free to sever ties with Fulltone based on their customers opinions on Fulltone.

    At no point has anyone's right to free speech been impacted, but if you piss people off there are consequences.
    I agree with all that, and the worlds gone mad
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  • FiftyshadesofjayFiftyshadesofjay Frets: 1427
    edited June 2020
    To be fair it doesn’t really have anything to do with whether you think it’s great banter or outdated, offensive bullshit.

    What ultimately matters is if Fender decides that one of their most prominent public figures has sullied the brand with his behaviour and they obviously do.
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  • danishbacondanishbacon Frets: 2694
    edited June 2020
    Brand value, marketing and consumer buy in really revolve around feelings, affinity and affiliations (lets put aside objective quality/value assessments). Let’s take fender CS Slogan. When you’re ready... ready for what? When I can afford it? When I hit a certain standard? When I’m ready to go on the open mic at the local? You fill in the blank, get it? Why buy a John Mayer strat? John Cruz? What does that mean? Paint by numbers luthier or pinnacle of fender craftsmanship? 

    All of these things are subjective shaped by gear reviews, interviews, your videos, compliments by the sales rep, what your friends think, what you think etc, and any number of those things. All of these or some combination of also affect my buying decisions, this is important, I’ll come back to it later. 

    I never gave John Cruz a second though before this, didn’t know what he looked like, don’t know his history. I’m sure the guitars he makes are stellar. I’m sure that there are plenty of people who would find him to be good company. I’m sure that there are people that would find his alleged post entertaining, even. 

    Personally, I didn’t quite identify with his demeanour in the video and I found his attempt at comedy crass. It is therefore unlikely that I will see the same value in his instruments as someone with opposite perceptions to mine might, and this is why fender likely terminated his contract if this whole saga is indeed true. Further to that, their continuation of a relationship to with him might communicate to the proverbial me (consumer) that that kind of undeniably tasteless attempt at humour (to some people) and possible associated behaviours (ie, is this guy making his coworkers uncomfortable, does his high status position mean he walks around saying what he wants in the shop floor, etc etc) is tolerated, condoned even.

    At the end of the day, John Cruz the person was somewhat inextricable from fender custom shop the brand, his name was used to promote products and directly contributed to the bottom line. This is usually why companies have social media policies, to protect them from the impact of employees who might have less restraint in the context of actions that can tarnish the brand image (even to just a few people) and consequently turnover. 

    For sake of balance let’s say that every single Fender guitar buyer shares the same humour and demeanour as mr Cruz, the brand might not be affected at all but that’s a pretty spurious unknown and I think in this case Fender saw it more as a risk than anything else. 
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  • RaymondLinRaymondLin Frets: 11811
    edited June 2020
    1 - Cruz can say what he likes.
    2 - Fender is free to hire or fire who they like.

    No one force JC to post what he did, he did that all on his own (unless there is evidence to the contrary), then the consequences is all his doing.  The whole “worth losing his job over” argument holds no water as it’s not like anyone force him to do it.  If anyone doesn’t like that then I revert to point No.2.

    its about time people are getting some consequences to their action, from Trump and his constant stupidity to Cummings, this isn’t about snowflake or people getting offended, this is about rising the bar of decency and responsibility just a little bit.

     Fender has a responsibility to put out an image that their company are not racist in any way shape or form, JC being a famous builder cannot be allowed to tarnish that image in any capacity.   Not sacking him will put questions in the whole company's stance in terms of racism, which to put it simply, there is no room for racists.   Sacking him will not do much to sales (how many people can actually afford MB guitars and how many specifically look for JC build guitars? The total profit depends on how many JC actually makes vs the entire Fender product line being put into quetsion), not sacking him could cause people not buying Fender totally.   Which means JC had to go. 

    In the end, it’s about money. Is it right? Possibly but it sure is the real world we live in.
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  • adampeter said:
    People need to get over themselves
    If that means that people need to stop sticking up for what they believe then it's a pretty lazy thing to say.
    adampeter said:
    I agree with all that, and the worlds gone mad
    Because people want to see it become a fairer and nicer place?

    Cruz got sacked for what he did because big statements like that need to be made right now; that people won't tolerate prejudice.

    You can go around using the "snowflake" trump card as much as you want. The irony being that it's snowflake behaviour to be unable to deal with opposing opinions.
    Read my guitar/gear blog at medium.com/redchairriffs

    View my feedback at www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1201922
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    FENDER

    Urgently required

    A job opportunity has arisen within our world famous company. We are looking to employ a Fender Masterbuilder to put together parts in a world class way.

    Salary starts at $250,000 pa

    Mandatory skills:
    Expert use of a screwdriver

    Desirable:
    Not a bell-end
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  • RaymondLinRaymondLin Frets: 11811
    adampeter said:
    People need to get over themselves
    If that means that people need to stop sticking up for what they believe then it's a pretty lazy thing to say.
    adampeter said:
    I agree with all that, and the worlds gone mad
    Because people want to see it become a fairer and nicer place?

    Cruz got sacked for what he did because big statements like that need to be made right now; that people won't tolerate prejudice.

    You can go around using the "snowflake" trump card as much as you want. The irony being that it's snowflake behaviour to be unable to deal with opposing opinions.
    Trump is the biggest snowflake on earth, and a hypocrite. 
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  • dindudedindude Frets: 8534
    Only one thing is for sure, whenever someone starts a sentence with “world has gone mad” / “you couldn’t make it up” or some such opening gambit, the following diatribe is almost certainly some ill-informed nonsense worthy of little time.
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