Well-known songs that use Modes

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  • vizviz Frets: 10691
    Modes are easy to understand... 

    You're thinking about something that's happening tomorrow - lydian.
    you're talking to a friend - major 
    you're talking to a friend after 1 pint of stella - mixolydian
    you're talking to a friend after 2 pints of stella - dorian 
    you're talking to a friend after 3 pints of stella - aeolian
    you're talking to a friend after 4 pints of stella - phrygian
    you're talking to a friend after 5 pints of stella - locrian

    Melodic Minor Modes - half-way between any of those - #4 and b7, b6 and b7, b2 and b7  ... like after pint 5 when you add a tequila chaser. 

    and that's modes.. they shift the semi-tone clashes around to add emphasis in different places - just like we do in conversations... after beer. 
    Great!!

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • CrankyCranky Frets: 2630
    I'd be curious to learn about any tips someone might have for listening to music with modes in mind.  Even just looking at a chord progression written down, I have a hard time figuring out what the mode is.  I have no idea how people decipher a song's mode by ear.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10691
    edited September 2020
    Cranky said:
    I'd be curious to learn about any tips someone might have for listening to music with modes in mind.  Even just looking at a chord progression written down, I have a hard time figuring out what the mode is.  I have no idea how people decipher a song's mode by ear.


    Pure modal music has a different set of harmonisations from those of Ionian and Aeolian.

    We know Ionian has   I ii iii IV V vi vii°.
    And Aeolian has   i ii° III iv v VI VII. *

    Note: Some people write Aeolian with flats in front of the 3rd, 6th and 7th, to show how the note degrees deviate from Ionian (i ii° bIII iv v bVI bVII). Others don't, they just say "it's minor so obviously those notes are flattened"). 



    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    It follows that the other scales have different harmonisations too. So in order of lightest to darkest scale, with the important chords to listen out for, they go like this:

    Lydian: I II iii #iv° V vi vii
    Ionian: I ii iii IV V vi vii°
    Mixolydian: I ii iii° IV v vi bVII

    Dorian: i ii III IV v #vi° VII
    Aeolian: i ii° III iv v VI VII
    Phrygian: i bII III iv v° VI vii

    Locrian: forget about it. oh ok, it's i° II iii iv bV VI vii


    Notes:
    - the scales above are grouped by the three major modes, then the three minor modes, then the diminished mode.
    - major chords are capitalised; minor chords are lower case.
    I've also put Ionian and Aeolian in italics, as they're the "default" scales for major and minor, so you can see the scales above and below them in each case; the one above having a raised note, the one below having a flattened note.
    - I've bolded the chords whose roots deviate from Ionian (and in the case of minor scales, from Aeolian), and shown them as sharpened or flattened. For example, the 4th degree of the scale in Lydian is raised relative to Ionian, so I've shown that as a sharpened 4th.
    - I've also bolded the chords that most clearly characterise the mode. For example, the II chord in Lydian. 


    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    Here's a test case - Lydian:
    If you think carefully about it, Lydian has a raised 4th in the scale, right? so it follows that when you think of Lydian's chords, the way they are different from Ionian (apart from the 4th chord starting a semitone higher than normal and being a diminished chord not a major chord), is that the two chord must be a II not a ii. Why is this? Because in order to ensure that the 4th degree of the scale is raised, the II-chord must have a major 3rd.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    With respect to your difficulty in recognising modes by ear @Cranky ;;is that because you struggle to hear notes? Can you identify the 6th degree of the scale in a minor piece for example? For that matter, can you tell if a piece is in major or minor? If you can, then I think you’ll be able to tell what scale is being used. Because if you can hear the 3rd degree of the scale, then I’m sure you’ll be able to hear the 2nd, 4th, 6th and 7th, which is all you need for Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian and Phrygian. Remember there’s only 1 note difference between each mode. 


    * note: by the way, a lot of minor songs are i ii° III iv V VI VII, which deviates from pure Aeolian but sounds good.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • axisus said:
    I don't get modes. I've had them explained plenty of times over the years. I don't get modes.
    Digest this sir.
    .
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  • merlinmerlin Frets: 6674
    All songs use modes. 
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  • Picture a ladder that has three repeating colours painted on it's steps, red, white, blue, red, white, blue etc.

    There are three potential starting points on the ladder, so three ways to climb it:
    1) red, white, blue
    2) white, blue, red
    3) blue, red, white

    THOSE ARE THE THREE MODES OF THE LADDER.

    Now replace the 3-step ladder with a 7 note scale.

    That's how I often explain modes, and it usually elicits a lightbulb moment.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10691
    colski said:
    Picture a ladder that has three repeating colours painted on it's steps, red, white, blue, red, white, blue etc.

    There are three potential starting points on the ladder, so three ways to climb it:
    1) red, white, blue
    2) white, blue, red
    3) blue, red, white

    THOSE ARE THE THREE MODES OF THE LADDER.

    Now replace the 3-step ladder with a 7 note scale.

    That's how I often explain modes, and it usually elicits a lightbulb moment.
    That’s a good demo!



    (Demo is the 3rd mode of mode)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • CrankyCranky Frets: 2630
    viz said:
    Cranky said:
    I'd be curious to learn about any tips someone might have for listening to music with modes in mind.  Even just looking at a chord progression written down, I have a hard time figuring out what the mode is.  I have no idea how people decipher a song's mode by ear.


    Pure modal music has a different set of harmonisations from those of Ionian and Aeolian.

    We know Ionian has   I ii iii IV V vi vii°.
    And Aeolian has   i ii° III iv v VI VII. *

    Note: Some people write Aeolian with flats in front of the 3rd, 6th and 7th, to show how the note degrees deviate from Ionian (i ii° bIII iv v bVI bVII). Others don't, they just say "it's minor so obviously those notes are flattened"). 



    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    It follows that the other scales have different harmonisations too. So in order of lightest to darkest scale, with the important chords to listen out for, they go like this:

    Lydian: I II iii #iv° V vi vii
    Ionian: I ii iii IV V vi vii°
    Mixolydian: I ii iii° IV v vi bVII

    Dorian: i ii III IV v #vi° VII
    Aeolian: i ii° III iv v VI VII
    Phrygian: i bII III iv v° VI vii

    Locrian: forget about it. oh ok, it's i° II iii iv bV VI vii


    Notes:
    - the scales above are grouped by the three major modes, then the three minor modes, then the diminished mode.
    - major chords are capitalised; minor chords are lower case.
    I've also put Ionian and Aeolian in italics, as they're the "default" scales for major and minor, so you can see the scales above and below them in each case; the one above having a raised note, the one below having a flattened note.
    - I've bolded the chords whose roots deviate from Ionian (and in the case of minor scales, from Aeolian), and shown them as sharpened or flattened. For example, the 4th degree of the scale in Lydian is raised relative to Ionian, so I've shown that as a sharpened 4th.
    - I've also bolded the chords that most clearly characterise the mode. For example, the II chord in Lydian. 


    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    Here's a test case - Lydian:
    If you think carefully about it, Lydian has a raised 4th in the scale, right? so it follows that when you think of Lydian's chords, the way they are different from Ionian (apart from the 4th chord starting a semitone higher than normal and being a diminished chord not a major chord), is that the two chord must be a II not a ii. Why is this? Because in order to ensure that the 4th degree of the scale is raised, the II-chord must have a major 3rd.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    With respect to your difficulty in recognising modes by ear @Cranky ;;is that because you struggle to hear notes? Can you identify the 6th degree of the scale in a minor piece for example? For that matter, can you tell if a piece is in major or minor? If you can, then I think you’ll be able to tell what scale is being used. Because if you can hear the 3rd degree of the scale, then I’m sure you’ll be able to hear the 2nd, 4th, 6th and 7th, which is all you need for Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian and Phrygian. Remember there’s only 1 note difference between each mode. 


    * note: by the way, a lot of minor songs are i ii° III iv V VI VII, which deviates from pure Aeolian but sounds good.
    Honestly, I can't say I've every truly tried to do this.  I've been told to "listen" to different stuff as part of my homework, but never with any structure.  This is another place where I think I'm going to have to pick a few songs and write things down.  I also have an aversion to singing -- part of my personal baggage.  I'm working on this, and I definitely see how it'll help me with my listening skills.

    I think I'm alright at telling if a single chord is major, minor, lydian, or maybe even phrygian.  But an entire song?  I feel that I'm not even close.
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  • FWIW I think modes are rather more subtle than many (including me) often think. The fact that the Ionian and Aeolian modes share the same notes as the Major and Natural Minor scales is deeply unfortunate because it means that people tend think of them as being the same.

    This belief then leads people to think of the other modes in a similar way. Namely, “let’s do something in Lydian by using a II chord rather than a ii”. Or, “it’s got a bVII therefore it’s Mixo”.....

    But I don’t think this logic is correct at all.

    IMO whole notion of a “chord progression” is intimately linked to functional harmony (hence the notion of “progression”) and the modes other than Ionian don’t really fit into this. Even Natural Minor usually replaces the v m7 with a V7 to give a stronger tritone tension in the five position to facilitate a stronger resolution.

    I’m not sure that the term “modal chord progression” isn’t even an oxymoron. Modes are much more about a scale sound over a drone note and much less about chords.

    But we all know how to construct chords from scales so we like to do it whenever we are given a scale, and then start playing a “progression”.

    Try playing a “modal chord progression” other than Ionian. It’s sort of unsatisfying IMO. Maybe a I, bVII, IV, I sounds okay because it is so embedded in our ears from blues and pop. But most others just sound rubbish.

    Just because one chooses to play a chord with a #4 doesn’t mean it’s Lydian. It’s because it sounds good in that context.

    All IMO of course.


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  • vizviz Frets: 10691
    edited October 2020
    Cranky said:
    viz said:
    Cranky said:
    I'd be curious to learn about any tips someone might have for listening to music with modes in mind.  Even just looking at a chord progression written down, I have a hard time figuring out what the mode is.  I have no idea how people decipher a song's mode by ear.


    Pure modal music has a different set of harmonisations from those of Ionian and Aeolian.

    We know Ionian has   I ii iii IV V vi vii°.
    And Aeolian has   i ii° III iv v VI VII. *

    Note: Some people write Aeolian with flats in front of the 3rd, 6th and 7th, to show how the note degrees deviate from Ionian (i ii° bIII iv v bVI bVII). Others don't, they just say "it's minor so obviously those notes are flattened"). 



    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    It follows that the other scales have different harmonisations too. So in order of lightest to darkest scale, with the important chords to listen out for, they go like this:

    Lydian: I II iii #iv° V vi vii
    Ionian: I ii iii IV V vi vii°
    Mixolydian: I ii iii° IV v vi bVII

    Dorian: i ii III IV v #vi° VII
    Aeolian: i ii° III iv v VI VII
    Phrygian: i bII III iv v° VI vii

    Locrian: forget about it. oh ok, it's i° II iii iv bV VI vii


    Notes:
    - the scales above are grouped by the three major modes, then the three minor modes, then the diminished mode.
    - major chords are capitalised; minor chords are lower case.
    I've also put Ionian and Aeolian in italics, as they're the "default" scales for major and minor, so you can see the scales above and below them in each case; the one above having a raised note, the one below having a flattened note.
    - I've bolded the chords whose roots deviate from Ionian (and in the case of minor scales, from Aeolian), and shown them as sharpened or flattened. For example, the 4th degree of the scale in Lydian is raised relative to Ionian, so I've shown that as a sharpened 4th.
    - I've also bolded the chords that most clearly characterise the mode. For example, the II chord in Lydian. 


    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    Here's a test case - Lydian:
    If you think carefully about it, Lydian has a raised 4th in the scale, right? so it follows that when you think of Lydian's chords, the way they are different from Ionian (apart from the 4th chord starting a semitone higher than normal and being a diminished chord not a major chord), is that the two chord must be a II not a ii. Why is this? Because in order to ensure that the 4th degree of the scale is raised, the II-chord must have a major 3rd.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    With respect to your difficulty in recognising modes by ear @Cranky ;;;is that because you struggle to hear notes? Can you identify the 6th degree of the scale in a minor piece for example? For that matter, can you tell if a piece is in major or minor? If you can, then I think you’ll be able to tell what scale is being used. Because if you can hear the 3rd degree of the scale, then I’m sure you’ll be able to hear the 2nd, 4th, 6th and 7th, which is all you need for Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian and Phrygian. Remember there’s only 1 note difference between each mode. 


    * note: by the way, a lot of minor songs are i ii° III iv V VI VII, which deviates from pure Aeolian but sounds good.
    Honestly, I can't say I've every truly tried to do this.  I've been told to "listen" to different stuff as part of my homework, but never with any structure.  This is another place where I think I'm going to have to pick a few songs and write things down.  I also have an aversion to singing -- part of my personal baggage.  I'm working on this, and I definitely see how it'll help me with my listening skills.

    I think I'm alright at telling if a single chord is major, minor, lydian, or maybe even phrygian.  But an entire song?  I feel that I'm not even close.
    Well you only really need to hear chord 1 to narrow it down to 3. 

    Then you need chord 4 which will tell you if it’s Ionian or Lydian (if major), or Aeolian or Dorian (if minor)

    And you need chord 7 to tell you if it’s Ionian or Mixolydian (if major), or Aeolian or Phrygian (if minor). 

    So, seeing as it’s probably not lydian or phrygian, with a following wind you just listen to two chords:

    The I and the vii(dim) or bVII, or

    The i and the iv or IV. 


    (All assuming the song stays true to its mode of course, which most don’t)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • CrankyCranky Frets: 2630
    viz said:
    Cranky said:
    viz said:
    Cranky said:
    I'd be curious to learn about any tips someone might have for listening to music with modes in mind.  Even just looking at a chord progression written down, I have a hard time figuring out what the mode is.  I have no idea how people decipher a song's mode by ear.


    Pure modal music has a different set of harmonisations from those of Ionian and Aeolian.

    We know Ionian has   I ii iii IV V vi vii°.
    And Aeolian has   i ii° III iv v VI VII. *

    Note: Some people write Aeolian with flats in front of the 3rd, 6th and 7th, to show how the note degrees deviate from Ionian (i ii° bIII iv v bVI bVII). Others don't, they just say "it's minor so obviously those notes are flattened"). 



    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    It follows that the other scales have different harmonisations too. So in order of lightest to darkest scale, with the important chords to listen out for, they go like this:

    Lydian: I II iii #iv° V vi vii
    Ionian: I ii iii IV V vi vii°
    Mixolydian: I ii iii° IV v vi bVII

    Dorian: i ii III IV v #vi° VII
    Aeolian: i ii° III iv v VI VII
    Phrygian: i bII III iv v° VI vii

    Locrian: forget about it. oh ok, it's i° II iii iv bV VI vii


    Notes:
    - the scales above are grouped by the three major modes, then the three minor modes, then the diminished mode.
    - major chords are capitalised; minor chords are lower case.
    I've also put Ionian and Aeolian in italics, as they're the "default" scales for major and minor, so you can see the scales above and below them in each case; the one above having a raised note, the one below having a flattened note.
    - I've bolded the chords whose roots deviate from Ionian (and in the case of minor scales, from Aeolian), and shown them as sharpened or flattened. For example, the 4th degree of the scale in Lydian is raised relative to Ionian, so I've shown that as a sharpened 4th.
    - I've also bolded the chords that most clearly characterise the mode. For example, the II chord in Lydian. 


    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    Here's a test case - Lydian:
    If you think carefully about it, Lydian has a raised 4th in the scale, right? so it follows that when you think of Lydian's chords, the way they are different from Ionian (apart from the 4th chord starting a semitone higher than normal and being a diminished chord not a major chord), is that the two chord must be a II not a ii. Why is this? Because in order to ensure that the 4th degree of the scale is raised, the II-chord must have a major 3rd.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------


    With respect to your difficulty in recognising modes by ear @Cranky ;;;is that because you struggle to hear notes? Can you identify the 6th degree of the scale in a minor piece for example? For that matter, can you tell if a piece is in major or minor? If you can, then I think you’ll be able to tell what scale is being used. Because if you can hear the 3rd degree of the scale, then I’m sure you’ll be able to hear the 2nd, 4th, 6th and 7th, which is all you need for Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian and Phrygian. Remember there’s only 1 note difference between each mode. 


    * note: by the way, a lot of minor songs are i ii° III iv V VI VII, which deviates from pure Aeolian but sounds good.
    Honestly, I can't say I've every truly tried to do this.  I've been told to "listen" to different stuff as part of my homework, but never with any structure.  This is another place where I think I'm going to have to pick a few songs and write things down.  I also have an aversion to singing -- part of my personal baggage.  I'm working on this, and I definitely see how it'll help me with my listening skills.

    I think I'm alright at telling if a single chord is major, minor, lydian, or maybe even phrygian.  But an entire song?  I feel that I'm not even close.
    Well you only really need to hear chord 1 to narrow it down to 3. 

    Then you need chord 4 which will tell you if it’s Ionian or Lydian (if major), or Aeolian or Dorian (if minor)

    And you need chord 7 to tell you if it’s Ionian or Mixolydian (if major), or Aeolian or Phrygian (if minor). 

    So, seeing as it’s probably not lydian or phrygian, with a following wind you just listen to two chords:

    The I and the vii(dim) or bVII, or

    The i and the iv or IV. 


    (All assuming the song stays true to its mode of course, which most don’t)
    You're a fantastic teacher, Viz.  Thank you for showing me how to break it down and giving me a nice structure to work with.

    I think I can work out modal mixtures and borrowed chords okay.  So a tune that isn't 100% true to it's mode should still be workable.

    Up until a year or so ago, I really had never thought about any of this stuff.  I knew I-IV-V, relative minors, and pentatonic scales.  I thought of the rest as "extra," but consciously decided to put those old ways to bed.  It's been quite enlightening along the way, I'm very grateful to folks like you.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10691
    DesWalker said:

    FWIW I think modes are rather more subtle than many (including me) often think. The fact that the Ionian and Aeolian modes share the same notes as the Major and Natural Minor scales is deeply unfortunate because it means that people tend think of them as being the same.

    This belief then leads people to think of the other modes in a similar way. Namely, “let’s do something in Lydian by using a II chord rather than a ii”. Or, “it’s got a bVII therefore it’s Mixo”.....

    But I don’t think this logic is correct at all.

    IMO whole notion of a “chord progression” is intimately linked to functional harmony (hence the notion of “progression”) and the modes other than Ionian don’t really fit into this. Even Natural Minor usually replaces the v m7 with a V7 to give a stronger tritone tension in the five position to facilitate a stronger resolution.

    I’m not sure that the term “modal chord progression” isn’t even an oxymoron. Modes are much more about a scale sound over a drone note and much less about chords.

    But we all know how to construct chords from scales so we like to do it whenever we are given a scale, and then start playing a “progression”.

    Try playing a “modal chord progression” other than Ionian. It’s sort of unsatisfying IMO. Maybe a I, bVII, IV, I sounds okay because it is so embedded in our ears from blues and pop. But most others just sound rubbish.

    Just because one chooses to play a chord with a #4 doesn’t mean it’s Lydian. It’s because it sounds good in that context.

    All IMO of course.


    I agree with some of what you say, and although you didn’t quite say it, it’s definitely true that major (which is the same as Ionian), and minor (normally in the form of Aeolian but with a major dominant chord - not sure what you’re referring to with your tritone comment), are by far the most common keys of western music from 1600-1900 and an awful lot of music from the 20th century. 

    Also I agree that a II chord in a major song doesn’t necessarily imply Lydian, for example. (Like I Think I’m Wonderful by The Damned has a I II IV progression - they’re just parallel major chords. Not Lydian mode)

    But I don’t know what point you’re making about functional harmony? The theory of functional harmony started after medieval modal music, but it applies just as well to Dorian and Mixolydian as to major, minor and aeolian songs, as the chords in each have strong tonic, subdominant and dominant functions, especially if you majorise the V chords. So modal progressions are completely viable. 

    Anyway, this is an extremely interesting discussion, so please do let’s discuss further!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • I don’t agree that modes and functional harmony sit well together. 

    Each mode has a single tritone and the location of this relative to the Root and hence the Tonic is very important. It just so happens that the Ionian tritone sits in the correct position but not so for the others modes.

    It is for this reason that the V7 needs to replace the v m7 in Minor - a second tritone is created inside the five chord position because otherwise we only have the one in the flat seven position and this isn’t of any use in functional harmony.

    A second example, the Dominant chord in Lydian is II7 but where does this resolve ? I suppose one might argue it resolves to the V, but that’s not something I’d agree with. The notion of “resolution” is to the Tonic not to somewhere else.

    Of course we could repeat the idea of Natural Minor above and choose to replace the V Maj7 in Lydian with a V7 and construct chord progressions using this as the Dominant (like we do in Minor). But that is a very substantial change and completely defeats the notion of a “modal chord progression”, instead we have moved into the realms of Major plus accidentals.

    So to summarise, IMO it really is only the Ionian that truly fits the notion of functional harmony. Without a V7 it’s hard to write chord “progressions”, and with it it’s really Major plus some outside notes.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10691
    edited October 2020
    DesWalker said:

    I don’t agree that modes and functional harmony sit well together. 

    Each mode has a single tritone and the location of this relative to the Root and hence the Tonic is very important. It just so happens that the Ionian tritone sits in the correct position but not so for the others modes.

    It is for this reason that the V7 needs to replace the v m7 in Minor - a second tritone is created inside the five chord position because otherwise we only have the one in the flat seven position and this isn’t of any use in functional harmony.

    A second example, the Dominant chord in Lydian is II7 but where does this resolve ? I suppose one might argue it resolves to the V, but that’s not something I’d agree with. The notion of “resolution” is to the Tonic not to somewhere else.

    Of course we could repeat the idea of Natural Minor above and choose to replace the V Maj7 in Lydian with a V7 and construct chord progressions using this as the Dominant (like we do in Minor). But that is a very substantial change and completely defeats the notion of a “modal chord progression”, instead we have moved into the realms of Major plus accidentals.

    So to summarise, IMO it really is only the Ionian that truly fits the notion of functional harmony. Without a V7 it’s hard to write chord “progressions”, and with it it’s really Major plus some outside notes.
    But even if you don’t majorise the V in Aeolian, Dorian and Mixolydian, do you not find those progressions and resolutions not satisfactory? Ok they do not have the perfection of a perfect cadence, but they still resolve. And majorising those Vs is where you add the accidental; it’s a greater stretch to say the mode itself is major with accidentals, no? 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Firstly I must say this is all my point of view. There is a large degree of subjectivity in music theory and much of what I say is purely my opinion.

    I think weak resolutions are just that, weak. They lend themselves to chord movements that we are accustomed to hearing (eg I bVII IV I) and other circular vamps without any particular resolution. Maybe the same criticism could also be levelled at the purely triadic I IV V I progression, hence the common addition of the flat seven to the V to form the tritone and ram home the resolution.

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe all strong chord progressions adhere to functional harmony ideas. But often I prefer to denote chord progressions with a II as Major/Minor plus an accidental rather than any notion of Lydian with a II7. On the other hand seeing a bVII will always make me think Mixo rather than considering it as a diminished triad in Major but with a flattened root.

    That’s not to say that understanding modes isn’t very useful. Take Blues for example where often we use Dorian add 3 which is the same as Mixolydian add b3. This scale contains 10 of the 12 chord tones across the entire progression hence its use in soloing. It’s also known as the hybrid scale, mixing Major and Minor Pentatonics.

    It’s empowering to know this stuff if only to know its limitations. There’s only 12 notes and all of them can sound good if handled correctly. That’s the way I prefer to think rather than pigeon hole everything into a particular mode or scale.

    I don’t know what people have against playing single note mode lines over drones, preferring instead to bastardise modes into chord progressions. Playing some E Phrygian lines while droning the low E is always good fun. Much more so than playing Em C F Em.

    Sorry for my waffle. No doubt much of it is garbage, but it’s my garbage.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10691
    I have to agree with you on so many points - like there being a large degree of subjectivity in music, and also that it's empowering to know this stuff so that you can know its limitations (and where to deviate from rules and norms)

    I also agree that it's fulfilling playing a mode over a drone. (I'm not sure anyone is against doing that)

    With the II in Lydian, it completely depends on the context. Lydian pieces are allowable, and they typically have a II chord. However, I agree in many cases a II chord is just a parallel chord, or an accidental deployed to give an instantaneous change in flavour.

    Basically I think it's an and, not an either/or. Lots of modal music is harmonically satisfying, but so is playing over a drone.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 16090
    colski said:
    Picture a ladder that has three repeating colours painted on it's steps, red, white, blue, red, white, blue etc.

    There are three potential starting points on the ladder, so three ways to climb it:
    1) red, white, blue
    2) white, blue, red
    3) blue, red, white

    THOSE ARE THE THREE MODES OF THE LADDER.

    Now replace the 3-step ladder with a 7 note scale.

    That's how I often explain modes, and it usually elicits a lightbulb moment.
    I tell people to imagine the circle line on the tube .....the destinations are the same but it depends where you hop on .
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  • guitarjack66guitarjack66 Frets: 1843
    viz said:
    Thought I'd compile a little list for people to get familiar with each mode's sound. Feel free to suggest!

    Ionian

    Over the Rainbow - Arlen & Harburg
    Happy Birthday - Patty Hill
    God save the Queen
     
    I had no idea The Sex Pistols used modes.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10691
    viz said:
    Thought I'd compile a little list for people to get familiar with each mode's sound. Feel free to suggest!

    Ionian

    Over the Rainbow - Arlen & Harburg
    Happy Birthday - Patty Hill
    God save the Queen
     
    I had no idea The Sex Pistols used modes.
    Haha! Though that’s also in Ionian!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • GassageGassage Frets: 30888
    @viz ;

    What mode is this? It's very unusual.


    *An Official Foo-Approved guitarist since Sept 2023.

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