What classical guitar should I look for?

drofluf

ToneControl said:

digitalkettle said:

ToneControl said:

a note to all - be careful if you buy carbon strings, they sound very good, but you need to tie them far more securely because they are very slippy, the clear strings can escape and damage the soundboard

I don't use carbons...do they still slip if you melt a ball-end onto them?

that's one way, I just use double the number of twists

Or you could use Bridgebeads like these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Diamond-BridgeBeads-Classical-Guitar-String/dp/B00G7RHR9W. Haven’t tried them with carbon strings, or carbon strings at all. What’s the benefit of them?

ToneControl

drofluf said:

ToneControl said:

digitalkettle said:

ToneControl said:

a note to all - be careful if you buy carbon strings, they sound very good, but you need to tie them far more securely because they are very slippy, the clear strings can escape and damage the soundboard

I don't use carbons...do they still slip if you melt a ball-end onto them?

that's one way, I just use double the number of twists

Or you could use Bridgebeads like these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Diamond-BridgeBeads-Classical-Guitar-String/dp/B00G7RHR9W. Haven’t tried them with carbon strings, or carbon strings at all. What’s the benefit of them?

Carbon strings are very popular, John Williams uses them, they have less of a mid-heavy sound, with more definition (especially with my lattice-braced classicals)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWrO0UMe9rM

TheBigDipper

An update if anyones interested...

I've played a few classicals over the past few days. I'm sort of surprised at how I've reacted. My Martin 0-16 NY clearly doesn't have a classical guitar neck width and string spacing, despite being quite wide compared to the other acoustics I own. All the classicals were much wider and had a much higher action than I remembered. To the point of being unpleasant. But some lovely nylon-string tones, all the same.

So I'm going to have a look at some crossovers to see if I find them more acceptable than a traditional Spanish classical guitar. 

But it really has come as a bit of a surprise.

ToneControl

TheBigDipper said:

An update if anyones interested...

I've played a few classicals over the past few days. I'm sort of surprised at how I've reacted. My Martin 0-16 NY clearly doesn't have a classical guitar neck width and string spacing, despite being quite wide compared to the other acoustics I own. All the classicals were much wider and had a much higher action than I remembered. To the point of being unpleasant. But some lovely nylon-string tones, all the same.

So I'm going to have a look at some crossovers to see if I find them more acceptable than a traditional Spanish classical guitar. 

But it really has come as a bit of a surprise.

Just looked it up, sounds like your 0-16 NY guitar nut is 1 7/8 inches
standard classicals are 2 inches

High action is normal on classicals, the strings are lower tension, and I think vibrate more, and also don't sound as out of tune as you'd expect when fretted with the high action.

Probably best to go for a crossover if you would prefer not to adapt your style

I saw a high end crossover for £1500 last week, mostly geared to plugged-in playing, but I think your budget is lower.

Does your Martin have a flat fingerboard, or a slight radius like steel strung acoustics?

TheBigDipper

ToneControl said:

TheBigDipper said:

An update if anyones interested...

I've played a few classicals over the past few days. I'm sort of surprised at how I've reacted. My Martin 0-16 NY clearly doesn't have a classical guitar neck width and string spacing, despite being quite wide compared to the other acoustics I own. All the classicals were much wider and had a much higher action than I remembered. To the point of being unpleasant. But some lovely nylon-string tones, all the same.

So I'm going to have a look at some crossovers to see if I find them more acceptable than a traditional Spanish classical guitar. 

But it really has come as a bit of a surprise.

Just looked it up, sounds like your 0-16 NY guitar nut is 1 7/8 inches
standard classicals are 2 inches
- Yes. The Martin is 1 7/8in nut, 1 5/8in string to string. It's been a while since I played a "proper" classical, and I'm no longer convinced I want to play anything with quite that high an action when everything else I play is so different. 

High action is normal on classicals, the strings are lower tension, and I think vibrate more, and also don't sound as out of tune as you'd expect when fretted with the high action.
- Indeed.

Probably best to go for a crossover if you would prefer not to adapt your style
- Feels like I don't. Of course, I might totally flip/flop back after trying a few crossovers or "modern classicals".

I saw a high end crossover for £1500 last week, mostly geared to plugged-in playing, but I think your budget is lower.
- My budget IS lower, but that's never stopped me if something just blows me away. I'll be playing above my budget (and already have) just to see what you get for a bit more dosh. But plugged-in playing is not a priority - the nylon-string sound is. 

Does your Martin have a flat fingerboard, or a slight radius like steel strung acoustics?
- It feels flat, but a radius gauge shows me it's actually 20in radius underneath the strings at the bridge, possibly a slightly flatter fretboard, didn't check any frets.

Some comments from me are inline, but I appreciate your interest and your suggestions/comments. Don't stop, ta! 

ToneControl

OK, there is an Avalon crossover going very cheap, £1500, should be £3k+ new
I had one, acoustic sound was not as loud as £6k classicals (since it has stiffer bracing to reduce feedback), 
played lovely as a crossover, but decided not my thing, prefer 2 inch nuts with higher action ;-)

GTC

The La Patrie (Godin) range could be worth a look for both normal classicals and crossovers. The higher end all-solid models would fit within your budget new.

I had the base Etude classical model and was mightily impressed with the tone, build quality and appearance. The nut width is 2" but the neck profile and the slightly (24") radiussed fretboard make them feel much more comfortable for a steel-strung player than a conventional classical. I liked the neck profile so much that I got Brook to do something very similar with a custom classical Cary model which I collected from Devon yesterday (NGD coming soon).

I've heard other forum members praise the Faith Lyra crossover. Alas, they don't do left-handed models so I've never tried one.

TheBigDipper

GTC said:

The La Patrie (Godin) range could be worth a look for both normal classicals and crossovers. The higher end all-solid models would fit within your budget new.

I had the base Etude classical model and was mightily impressed with the tone, build quality and appearance. The nut width is 2" but the neck profile and the slightly (24") radiussed fretboard make them feel much more comfortable for a steel-strung player than a conventional classical. I liked the neck profile so much that I got Brook to do something very similar with a custom classical Cary model which I collected from Devon yesterday (NGD coming soon).

I've heard other forum members praise the Faith Lyra crossover. Alas, they don't do left-handed models so I've never tried one.

Thanks. They're already on my list, but it's nice to know you liked yours. I'm popping over to Project Music in a week or so - they're waiting for some Cordobas to come in on Monday, and have a couple of La Patrie in at the mo. Once the Cordobas arrive I'll have enough reason to drive 2 hours each way to Exeter and visit them (and Mansons, and the new 2nd-hand shop). 

I love my Taw. If I had the money, I'd ask Brook to build me a nylon-strung guitar - but I don't! 

TBH, it wasn't the nut width that I've found an unpleasant surprise, more the high action. I need to remind myself that I had stopped playing classical before I started playing steel-strung acoustics or electrics, so I'd never been able to compare them. If you go up the neck on a classical, then a full or partial barre will bring the action down - but I also play open strings with high-fretted notes on some tunes and can't barre to do that. It feels weird. 

drofluf

GTC said:

<snip>

I've heard other forum members praise the Faith Lyra crossover. Alas, they don't do left-handed models so I've never tried one.

That was probably me, I do tend to bang on about it @TheBigDipper just measured the action on mine, it’s about 2.25mm on the low E if that’s any help. 

GTC

I haven't got it any more so I can't measure it - but I was able to bring the low E action down to under 2.5mm on the La Patrie Etude just by lowering the saddle without any issues. Out of the box, the action will be much higher though.

I much preferred the much cheaper La Patrie Etude to the considerably more expensive luthier series Cordoba C10 I once had. I've also had two Cordoba crossover guitars and found them unbalanced in tone and very "boomy" on the lower strings.

TheBigDipper

drofluf said:

GTC said:

<snip>

I've heard other forum members praise the Faith Lyra crossover. Alas, they don't do left-handed models so I've never tried one.

That was probably me, I do tend to bang on about it @TheBigDipper just measured the action on mine, it’s about 2.25mm on the low E if that’s any help. 

Yes. Helpful. ta. 

TheBigDipper

GTC said:

I haven't got it any more so I can't measure it - but I was able to bring the low E action down to under 2.5mm on the La Patrie Etude just by lowering the saddle without any issues. Out of the box, the action will be much higher though.

I much preferred the much cheaper La Patrie Etude to the considerably more expensive luthier series Cordoba C10 I once had. I've also had two Cordoba crossover guitars and found them unbalanced in tone and very "boomy" on the lower strings.

Again, very helpful, thanks. I'm going to play the Cordobas as a comparison. They stock 'em, so why not?  

GTC

TheBigDipper said:

Again, very helpful, thanks. I'm going to play the Cordobas as a comparison. They stock 'em, so why not?  

And so you should. It is all a matter of personal preference and some US reviews rate Cordobas higher than La Patrie. That isn't my opinion though.

If you are going to Project Music then it is worth also looking at a Furch Grand Nylon. They appear to have at least one in stock. They are a good example of how good a properly designed crossover can sound. It might be a little above your budget, it isn't the loudest guitar and it has a narrow (for a nylon strung) 45mm nut width with (I think) a 16" fretboard radius - but the sweet clear balanced tone is better than any other crossover I've played.

They stock them and you are going there -so why not? 

TheBigDipper

GTC said:

TheBigDipper said:

<snip>

If you are going to Project Music then it is worth also looking at a Furch Grand Nylon. They appear to have at least one in stock. They are a good example of how good a properly designed crossover can sound. It might be a little above your budget, it isn't the loudest guitar and it has a narrow (for a nylon strung) 45mm nut width with (I think) a 16" fretboard radius - but the sweet clear balanced tone is better than any other crossover I've played.

They stock them and you are going there -so why not? 

Don't think I hadn't noticed. I'm a big Furch fan. My 12 string acoustic is a lovely Stonebridge from the days when Furch was trying to be less "Czech" to the North American market. :-) 

WindmillGuitars

@TheBigDipper - don't know if you're sorted as yet, however i've just taken in this handcrafted hybrid classical which is simply outstanding for the money. I realise I'm a distance from you however if you're interested and want to know more drop me a line.
Cheers Simon

https://www.windmillguitars.com/collections/frontpage/products/norman-coates-hybrid-classical

TheBigDipper

WindmillGuitars said:

<snip> - don't know if you're sorted as yet, however i've just taken in this handcrafted hybrid classical which is simply outstanding for the money. I realise I'm a distance from you however if you're interested and want to know more drop me a line.
Cheers Simon

https://www.windmillguitars.com/collections/frontpage/products/norman-coates-hybrid-classical

Thanks for asking. Not at all sorted. It's a slow process with me! Next week I'll be trying out a few different hybrids to see how I get on with them and hopefully comparing them with standard classicals during the same visit. I'm looking for a cedar top, not spruce, though. 

ToneControl

WindmillGuitars said:

@TheBigDipper - don't know if you're sorted as yet, however i've just taken in this handcrafted hybrid classical which is simply outstanding for the money. I realise I'm a distance from you however if you're interested and want to know more drop me a line.
Cheers Simon

https://www.windmillguitars.com/collections/frontpage/products/norman-coates-hybrid-classical

does it have standard Lowden/Avalon X bracing, or is it more lightly braced?
how wide is the nut?

TheBigDipper

So, played some guitars today at Absolute Music. 

Faith Lyra - a hybrid with a 48mm nut. Lovely to play but sounded like it was made of plastic and badged "Chad Valley". What a shame... 
A lattice-braced 1973 Jose Ramirez - sounded really nice, Despite needing new strings, decent volume, but not that nice to actually play. 

An Alhambra/Alvarez (can't remember which!) - sounded almost as nice as the Ramirez, cheaper, but not nice enough a player.

Project Music tomorrow  to try out some Cordobas and La Patries. 

GTC

TheBigDipper said:

Project Music tomorrow  to try out some Cordobas and La Patries. 

Don't forget the Furch 

TheBigDipper

GTC said:

TheBigDipper said:

Project Music tomorrow  to try out some Cordobas and La Patries. 

Don't forget the Furch 

Closer inspection of their website suggests it's not in stock. Only available for order. If they have one, I'll be playing it!