John Hume

Rocker

John Hume, as far as I know, did not play music.  But he almost single handedly got the Peace Process in Northern Ireland to where it is today.  He did not do it totally on his own but it probably would not have happened without his input.

Probably the greatest Irishman in our lifetime.  RIP

WindmillGuitars

Well said @Rocker ;
I had the privilege of spending some time with John over the years. A fascinating man who had time for everyone and in his own unique and personable manner brought many people together inside and outside politics despite their differences. 

ESBlonde

Undoubtedly a brave man who risked his political career and because of the times his and his families very lives. He will go down in history for his achievements RIP

Redlester

A great man. Decent, compassionate and determined. I wish all politicians had such integrity and capacity to engage with others, especially those with different views. 

Funkfingers

ESBlonde said:

Undoubtedly, a brave man who risked his political career

This.

In order to reach agreement halfway, somebody has to be willing to be the first to go further than halfway.

Respect.

dallcorp

I don't think any politician from Northern Ireland should ever be hero worshipped. Hume is probably the best of a very bad bunch in my opinion but I think at the very least he could be accused of extreme naivety for not forseeing that the civil rights marches would become the flashpoint which would allow those with an agenda of violence to rise.

dallcorp

I've listened to a lot of eulogies comparing him to MLK and Ghandi. The obvious problem being that those men managed to keep their movements from being hijacked by their more militant supporters.

Rocker

I don't think it is quite as simple or as black and white as you suggest @dallcorp. ; The exact reasons have been explained in many published books and documents, the simple fact is that the Nationalist supporting people of Derry and Northern Ireland were deprived of basic human rights, basic things like housing etc., by a government that had only one ambition and that was to remain a part of the United Kingdom.

If the government of the time, and previous governments, in Northern Ireland had treated the people of all backgrounds fairly and equally, the violence that lasted for around thirty years might never have happened.  IMHO the government carry a lot of responsibility for the years of violence in Northern Ireland.  Ordinary people can only take so much before the kick out.  John Hume simply pointed this fact out, the government response was to send in a Para regiment, a regiment that was basically out of control, who shot dead unarmed innocent people on the streets.

And the rest is history.

ICBM

Rocker said:

I don't think it is quite as simple or as black and white as you suggest @dallcorp. ;; The exact reasons have been explained in many published books and documents, the simple fact is that the Nationalist supporting people of Derry and Northern Ireland were deprived of basic human rights, basic things like housing etc., by a government that had only one ambition and that was to remain a part of the United Kingdom.

If the government of the time, and previous governments, in Northern Ireland had treated the people of all backgrounds fairly and equally, the violence that lasted for around thirty years might never have happened.  IMHO the government carry a lot of responsibility for the years of violence in Northern Ireland.  Ordinary people can only take so much before the kick out.  John Hume simply pointed this fact out, the government response was to send in a Para regiment, a regiment that was basically out of control, who shot dead unarmed innocent people on the streets.

And the rest is history.

For what it's worth, my father, a former British Army officer, saw how the Nationalist catholic community was treated while he was stationed there and sympathised with the Republican movement up to the point of violence, although not with many of their tactics and the deaths they caused.

He also thought that every soldier who fired a shot that day, and all of the officers who were there, should have been court-martialled and the ones who could be identified as having killed people charged with murder. For a supposedly civilised country to have its own army shoot dead unarmed civilians is not only one of the major reasons for the length and bitterness of the Troubles but utterly unacceptable on any level.

dallcorp

I'm not disputing that there was rampant discrimination and something needed to be done .........but on an island with such a long history of violent sectarianism and with the emerging militant factions it was obvious that Hume's Civil Rights demonstrations were not ever going to result in a peaceful outcome.

dallcorp

Other leaders of comparable Civil Rights movements had the ability to achieve good outcomes via non violent opposition to oppression in other parts of the world..........but Hume allowed his well intentioned efforts to be hijacked by the paramilitaries.

dallcorp

.......and at no point have I suggested any of this was "simple" or "black and white" Rocker.
In fact the only reason I am commenting at all is because I find the uncritical praise heaped upon Hume after his death to be overly "simple".

dallcorp

The British Regiments were originally sent in to protect the Nationalist community.........but this also played into the hands of a small number of young violent men who were determined to have their war.

Rocker

You have made a number of points @dallcorp. ; Some I tend to agree with, others not so.

"... an island with such a long history of violent sectarianism ..."

This is absolutely not the case.  Ireland, like many other countries and nations, rebelled against a bullying invader who colonised our country.  Superior weaponry and sheer numbers ensured the coloniser always emerged victorious in any skirmishes that took place.  The ordinary people of Ireland worked for and with the colonists who lived in the 'big houses'.  A lot of the colonists became 'more Irish than the Irish themselves'.

" ... The British Regiments were originally sent in to protect the Nationalist community ..."

That statement is true.  For the benefit of those not up to speed on events in Northern Ireland, in and around 1969 the UVF began a campaign of shooting nationalists and burning them out of their homes.  Under considerable international pressure, the UK government ordered in the troops to, officially anyway, defend the nationalist community.  What actually happened was that the troops set out to maintain the status quo.  Thus the British Army became part of and ultimately the problem. 

" ... I've listened to a lot of eulogies comparing him to MLK and Ghandi ..."

In this respect we have to take a longer distance, global view of the conflict.  In Ireland, the vast majority of people on the island want the island to be independent and self determining.  People object to and react to suppression in many ways.  Not all of them violent, and less so if the suppressors treat the natives fairly and with Justice.  This did not happen in Northern Ireland or at least it did not happen to the nationalist community who lived there.  After the UVF violence of '69, people like John Hume spoke out about the injustices suffered by the nationalist community.  The government, both Stormont and Whitehall, did not listen to what he said and thus did not act.  When no improvements took place, it was inevitable that violence would break out.  It did and it lasted nearly thirty years.  I do not condone violence but I understand it as it happened in Northern Ireland.  And I sympathise with everyone who lost family members and friends in the conflict.

Similar violence erupted in France and Belgium when the Nazi forces annexed their countries.  The insurgents were called resistance fighters.

In the US, the black people are now marching for a fair treatment.  Every day on TV there is footage of another Black Lives Matter march.  The government response is to send in the National Guard and, sadly and all to predictably, people have been shot and killed.  Centuries before, the Native Americans [Red Indians] rose against the invading white and were slaughtered by superior weaponry.  No lessons were ever learned by the leaders and governments of countries.

MLK spoke about the problem of black people over fifty years ago.  Nothing happened.  The problem has festered and has reached boiling point.  John Hume was one who spoke out.  But unlike MLK he was not assassinated and was one of the leaders who helped solve the problem of the violence.  That much has to be acknowledged and applauded. 

dallcorp

I don't buy the comparison between British involvement in Ireland and Nazi occupation of Europe......(and are these the same Nazis that nationalist Ireland refused to fight in WW2?)
The truth is that Ireland (and Britain) were subject to successive waves of invasion from the Vikings onwards and it was never as simple as you paint it.

dallcorp

Sorry Rocker........I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here........I grew up in Belfast and it's left me with a lifelong distaste of all tribal politicians and anyone who views any of them uncritically. There are no "heroes" to be found in the political history of the North in my opinion.

dallcorp

MLK and other Civil Rights leaders led a movement which achieved a giant improvement in the social rights and living conditions of Black Americans, they did this via mostly peaceful means and managed to avoid having it subverted by the militant Black panthers. Hume's short lived attempt was co-opted by the Provisionals within a couple of years.