Learning to improvise by ear, rather than with scales.

elsmandino

Hello there.

I have been playing for many years and, whenever I improvise, I always seem to do the same thing:

1. Look at the backing track and try to find a scale that will fit perfectly over everything.

2. Play that scale, trying to hit chord tones wherever possible.

By my own admission, things just sound boring and samey.

I have spent lots of time (especially during Lockdown) looking at various youtube videos that recommend playing by ear - i.e. playing a melody in your head and then putting that down on your guitar.

This was a bit of a revelation to me as I had no idea that this was what the best guitarists were actually doing.

The freedom to play what you want, without having to consciously try and remember scale shapes would make be amazing.

The trick, however, is what to do/practice to get to this point.

I have been doing ear training, every evening, to learn the sound of all the intervals.

However, I feel that I need to be doing something with my guitar, so that I can just play any melody (as if I were singing it).

Any tips on what to start doing would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

octatonic

elsmandino said:

Hello there.

I have been playing for many years and, whenever I improvise, I always seem to do the same thing:

1. Look at the backing track and try to find a scale that will fit perfectly over everything.

2. Play that scale, trying to hit chord tones wherever possible.

By my own admission, things just sound boring and samey.

That is is the simplest form of playing the changes- it is a necessary step but not a final destination.
Look into something called Pitch Axis Theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_axis_theory

Jalapeno

elsmandino said:

By my own admission, things just sound boring and samey.

Playing only by Scales/Modes does ....

No problem with that as a starter, but then go for the edgy stuff outside the scale b5/#5, b9/#9, #11, and upper scale 9 11 13 etc - also make little melodies with the chord tones vs racing up & down (it sounds really cool to widdle a melody up, then run down a scale or arpeggio)

octatonic

Another thing to focus on is rhythmic variation.
You don't need to be harmonically complicated, especially out of the jazz genre if your rhythms are interesting.

Using odd note grouping, 5 against 4, 7, 9, putting the accent off the 1 and 3, using a mixture of note groupings.
Repetition of melodic fragments using these groupings.
It is all vocabulary you need.

carlos

Great suggestions by octatonic and others so far. Easy to fall into a scales and modes rut if your approach to soloing is just seeing and playing the correct dots on the fretboard.
I'd suggest giving yourself limitations for each little practice run on a backing track. You should always have intention when soloing, instead of just putting your fingers on the dots. Some examples of limitations:
Simple -> complex -> simple
Start with only a few of the notes as your option. So for a piece in A minor, you could start by just using ACE (minor triad) for soloing. Then add the G (7th). Then add D (4th) so you have the full minor penta. Then add BF to get the full Aeolian to the soloing. Perhaps wander a bit into chromaticism. Then do the move back gradually to just ACE. Be strict and try to keep it interesting.
Vary intentionally between rubato and playing on the grid. Either play disregarding the beat and going for maximum expression or play strictly on the beats.
Solo along a single string using bends and slides for expression.
Solo using only chords. These can be as little as 2 notes together, whether in adjacent strings or not. Easy mode would be just using octaves (many ways of fingering those). Hard mode would be full chord melody type stuff. Even with just two notes you can be very expressive.

elsmandino

Thanks guys - I am slightly confused, however.

Whilst those tips are really useful for helping my improvising to sound more musical, am I not still basing it on scales?

What I really want to be able to do is kind of sing a melody (in my head) over a backing track and then play that melody on the guitar.

Is there any way (other than ear training) to practice that or is it simply the case that it will eventually happen with lots of playing?

The reason I ask - I started out, originally, researching how to make my improvising more melodic.

Whilst there was a lot of advice about modes, phrasing, accidentals (though never came across the pitch axis theory, which sounds really great), a lot of guitarists seem to suggest that playing what you want, rather than what scales dictate, was the key.

Hope that makes sense.

octatonic

There is a great technique I use that I stole from John Maclaughlin which is to repeat the same phrase 4 times but each time repeating the last note one more time.

Say it is a 3 note phrase:

C D F

Play it like this:

CDF
CDFF
CDFFF
CDFFFF

With a small gap between the 4 lines, as to mark that they are distinct phrases.

Or this:

CDF
CDFF
CDF
CDFFFC

Play some of the ideas across a different octave.
Or play it a 5th up.
Or a semitone up.
Wring its neck.

The big mistake people make is to not develop ideas fully.
You play a line and then it goes away, never to be developed or repeated or extended.
Scott Henderson taught me to develop simple ideas fully, get as much mileage as you can out of what you already know.

carlos

Ooops, I got carried away.

I don't rate ear training with intervals out of context like that at all, but that's just my impression.
Best way to develop your ear is to transcribe. Not the sheet music type transcribing where you'll spend 50% getting the right note length and placement on the beat, but hearing and playing. It's very overwhelming at the beginning so I recommend you start with melodies you've heard a million times already. Hear a bar or two and try to play them. If that doesn't work listen to any three notes or small musical sentence and try to play them. You're not trying to learn songs here, just trying to hear a pitch and trying to mimic it yourself. This will work out great for your goal of "What I really want to be able to do is kind of sing a melody (in my head) over a backing track and then play that melody on the guitar."

You can also do exactly what you wrote! Put on a backing track. Play for 30 seconds over it and record it. Then the following day (to avoid you remembering where your fingers were instead of listening) play the recording and try to play what you played before.

Is there any way (other than ear training) to practice that or is it simply the case that it will eventually happen with lots of playing?
It will also eventually happen with lots of playing.

Bear in mind that at certain tempos and note density, nobody is really 100% improvising, the human brain can't cope with that much information and options. It will always be lick based or pattern based. But the choice of what to use when is still a choice.

elsmandino

carlos said:

Ooops, I got carried away.

I don't rate ear training with intervals out of context like that at all, but that's just my impression.

To be honest, whilst I am getting better at this, I was wondering how this will actually improve my playing.  It is all very well recognising an interval, but how does that help on the fretboard.

I wonder if it needs to be coupled with learning the intervals on the fretboard.

So transcribing by ear is the key!  Sounds obvious, now, but I have only ever really learnt songs by tab or from instructional videos.  Stands to reason, then, why my ears are pretty poor at doing things for myself.

The trick that octatonic mentioned also seems like a really great idea - as a way of forcing you to associate your fingers with the sound of an interval.

Thanks so much - have given me some much needed inspiration.

carlos

I've been on Wayne Krantz's patreon for a few months now and he publishes one video per day. His music is getting closer every day to being 100% improvised. He learned all the theory and then tried to forget it all.
One exercise he did for learning intervals is to play a random note, and while that's sounding, play another. Assuming first note is the root, what is the other one? Since you're a guitar player might as well ground your ears in the fretboard and the geographical relation between notes. For me, I can't look at my hands or I'll know what the interval is straightaway but for you it can be a good exercise between ears and fingers.

ArchtopDave

 How well do you know the notes on the fretboard? And do you understand Key Signatures? If you have knowledge of these two things, then you do not need to remember scale shapes for when you're choosing to use use a particular scale. You just need to know which notes are sharp or flat. For instance, if you using F Major, then all the scale notes are naturals apart  from B, which is Bb.
Personally, I find working from a base of the notes of each chord (chord tones) and then elaborating on this provides for a more melodic approach. Ultimately, there is potential justification for playing any note over any chord, but then phrasing becomes vital, and it becomes a matter of how much dissonance you can tolerate/enjoy.

stickyfiddle

elsmandino said:

carlos said:

Ooops, I got carried away.

I don't rate ear training with intervals out of context like that at all, but that's just my impression.

To be honest, whilst I am getting better at this, I was wondering how this will actually improve my playing.  It is all very well recognising an interval, but how does that help on the fretboard.

I wonder if it needs to be coupled with learning the intervals on the fretboard.

So transcribing by ear is the key!  Sounds obvious, now, but I have only ever really learnt songs by tab or from instructional videos.  Stands to reason, then, why my ears are pretty poor at doing things for myself.

The trick that octatonic mentioned also seems like a really great idea - as a way of forcing you to associate your fingers with the sound of an interval.

Thanks so much - have given me some much needed inspiration.

I agree with @carlos and @octatonic. You've identified that the endgame is to be able to imagine a melody in your head and then play it in real time.

To get there, the main building block is to be able to hear an interval (as a melody is essentially just a string of intervals) and then be able to play it instinctively. 

I started (pre-youtube and vast collections of online tab) by just listening to CDs and working things out by ear, one bar at a time. While there might be other tricks and hints you can use to help you do it, there is no substitute for that process of recognising chunks of melodies and working out how to apply that on the fretboard.

Assuming you can sing it can also help to singing the melodies as you play them, as it helps get another part of the brain involved in creating links between the different elements. 

elsmandino

Such a shame that I have wasted so many years being lazy and just trying to play from (quite often inaccurate) tabs.

Going to start getting transcribing tonight.

I am also going to check out Wayne Krantz, too.

ArchtopDave said:

 How well do you know the notes on the fretboard? And do you understand Key Signatures? If you have knowledge of these two things, then you do not need to remember scale shapes for when you're choosing to use use a particular scale. You just need to know which notes are sharp or flat. For instance, if you using F Major, then all the scale notes are naturals apart  from B, which is Bb.
Personally, I find working from a base of the notes of each chord (chord tones) and then elaborating on this provides for a more melodic approach. Ultimately, there is potential justification for playing any note over any chord, but then phrasing becomes vital, and it becomes a matter of how much dissonance you can tolerate/enjoy.

ArchtopDave - can I just ask, do you visualise the fretboard, this way, every time you play?

I did try this approach, early on in my playing, but found it too much information to process.

octatonic

Nothing is wasted, but that doesn't mean you cannot change the script.

Jalapeno

I beleive @ArchtopDave has described how horn players think - band leader will put his hand up with 1 finger pointing down - everyone (except usually the guitarist) knows that 1 x b - the Bb means FMaj (they also do the same for minor - indicate the realtive major - so for Cm they indicate EbMaj). 

Also horn players are much better at pitching their instrument than we are - somebody plays a note or phrase and they can mimic it far easier than we guitar players can.  They can play a lot more by ear because they aren't thinking guitaristically - one step removed from their instrument like we are.

carlos

Jalapeno said:

I beleive @ArchtopDave has described how horn players think - band leader will put his hand up with 1 finger pointing down - everyone (except usually the guitarist) knows that 1 x b - the Bb means FMaj (they also do the same for minor - indicate the realtive major - so for Cm they indicate EbMaj).  

True, but nobody can transpose as fast as we can. It's so easy it's almost cheating.

ArchtopDave

carlos said:

Jalapeno said:

I beleive @ArchtopDave has described how horn players think - band leader will put his hand up with 1 finger pointing down - everyone (except usually the guitarist) knows that 1 x b - the Bb means FMaj (they also do the same for minor - indicate the realtive major - so for Cm they indicate EbMaj).  

True, but nobody can transpose as fast as we can. It's so easy it's almost cheating.

And if he sticks two fingers up, it's either D Major, or he's telling the orchestra what he thinks of them.

octatonic

carlos said:

Jalapeno said:

I beleive @ArchtopDave has described how horn players think - band leader will put his hand up with 1 finger pointing down - everyone (except usually the guitarist) knows that 1 x b - the Bb means FMaj (they also do the same for minor - indicate the realtive major - so for Cm they indicate EbMaj).  

True, but nobody can transpose as fast as we can. It's so easy it's almost cheating.

Yes it isn't a skill on guitar really.

But put some sheet music in front of many guitar players and watch them crumble.

carlos

octatonic said:

carlos said:

Jalapeno said:

I beleive @ArchtopDave has described how horn players think - band leader will put his hand up with 1 finger pointing down - everyone (except usually the guitarist) knows that 1 x b - the Bb means FMaj (they also do the same for minor - indicate the realtive major - so for Cm they indicate EbMaj).  

True, but nobody can transpose as fast as we can. It's so easy it's almost cheating.

Yes it isn't a skill on guitar really.

But put some sheet music in front of many guitar players and watch them crumble.

Sheet music is for nerds!

ArchtopDave

elsmandino said:

Such a shame that I have wasted so many years being lazy and just trying to play from (quite often inaccurate) tabs.

Going to start getting transcribing tonight.

I am also going to check out Wayne Krantz, too.

ArchtopDave said:

 How well do you know the notes on the fretboard? And do you understand Key Signatures? If you have knowledge of these two things, then you do not need to remember scale shapes for when you're choosing to use use a particular scale. You just need to know which notes are sharp or flat. For instance, if you using F Major, then all the scale notes are naturals apart  from B, which is Bb.
Personally, I find working from a base of the notes of each chord (chord tones) and then elaborating on this provides for a more melodic approach. Ultimately, there is potential justification for playing any note over any chord, but then phrasing becomes vital, and it becomes a matter of how much dissonance you can tolerate/enjoy.

ArchtopDave - can I just ask, do you visualise the fretboard, this way, every time you play?

I did try this approach, early on in my playing, but found it too much information to process.

Try learning a limited part of the fretboard first. One exercise is to take a piece of music with a reasonable number of chords in it, and using a limited area of the fretboard, for instance, from the Nut to the 5th Fret. If you can, lay down a slow loop of the chords, or even just use a metronome, and, first of all, go through the piece of music playing the Root Note only of each Chord on Beat 1, then repeat but play the 3rds, and then the 5ths of the chords. 7ths can be played as well.

If you want an exercise, that doesn't sound much different, but is actually a lot more brain pain. Then take the exercise as above, but start on any note of the first Chord, then play the nearest note, either up or down, of the next Chord to the note that you started on. It hurts because, having played the first note on Beat 1, you've got 3 Beats of time in which to analyse the notes of the next chord, decide which one you're going to play, work out where it is on the fretboard, and make sure you play on the Beat 1 of the next Bar. If you're lucky, the next nearest note might be the one you've just played! if you happen to choose a piece of music that has 2 Chords in the occasional Bar, then you have to think very fast indeed even at a slow tempo.

octatonic

carlos said:

octatonic said:

carlos said:

Jalapeno said:

I beleive @ArchtopDave has described how horn players think - band leader will put his hand up with 1 finger pointing down - everyone (except usually the guitarist) knows that 1 x b - the Bb means FMaj (they also do the same for minor - indicate the realtive major - so for Cm they indicate EbMaj).  

True, but nobody can transpose as fast as we can. It's so easy it's almost cheating.

Yes it isn't a skill on guitar really.

But put some sheet music in front of many guitar players and watch them crumble.

Sheet music is for nerds people who get paid!

FTFY.