Accident/insurance advice

WiresDreamDisasters

So hold up... I point out some logical observations from looking at photos... and I get told the road markings are clear and that I'm just being antagonistic because apparently it's "my thing"  ....

... and a bunch of other people turn up and say the same thing I was saying... and all of a sudden the road markings are completely fucked but it's all gravy and drive safe now ya hear!?!

Yeah, that's perfectly reasonable behaviour. I'd like an apology.

Dominic

No.......started that way but they were part of a laughable and imbecilic Accident Management Company who had zero interest in anything other than trying to hire an expensive car that they could claim from insurers.(I realise that these claims management companies are actually Car Hire firms in disguise charging ridiculous prices for insurers to pay while they resolve the claim )
The recommended legal firm were the most inefficient ,haphazard and negligent operation of any kind that I have ever come across .......catalogue of schoolboy errors including 5 attempts to get our name correct !!!
 Went to separate firm recommended by Insurance Broker friend .......started ok but effectively from Frying pan to fire !
Shockingly inarticulate ,dumbed down legal execs who probably failed to get a job at the council......our case was assigned to a young "innit" 3 times after we complained about him 3 times .....you would get a barely legible email from a manager saying they had taken over and yet the case was signed back to the idiot each and every time ; One day I had occasion to speak to him 5 times within 3 hours.........each time he forgot that we had already spoken that day and the conversation we had !!
 How do people like this get any kind of job ?I wouldn't trust them to sit the right way round on a lavatory .

chillidoggy

Isn't there something about having right of way when turning into a major to a minor road in the Highway Code?

Hattigol

Dominic said:

No.......started that way but they were part of a laughable and imbecilic Accident Management Company who had zero interest in anything other than trying to hire an expensive car that they could claim from insurers.(I realise that these claims management companies are actually Car Hire firms in disguise charging ridiculous prices for insurers to pay while they resolve the claim )
The recommended legal firm were the most inefficient ,haphazard and negligent operation of any kind that I have ever come across .......catalogue of schoolboy errors including 5 attempts to get our name correct !!!
 Went to separate firm recommended by Insurance Broker friend .......started ok but effectively from Frying pan to fire !
Shockingly inarticulate ,dumbed down legal execs who probably failed to get a job at the council......our case was assigned to a young "innit" 3 times after we complained about him 3 times .....you would get a barely legible email from a manager saying they had taken over and yet the case was signed back to the idiot each and every time ; One day I had occasion to speak to him 5 times within 3 hours.........each time he forgot that we had already spoken that day and the conversation we had !!
 How do people like this get any kind of job ?I wouldn't trust them to sit the right way round on a lavatory .

There are good ones out there, buddy. But the ones 'recommended' by insurers are all awful. They recommend them because they get a fee for doing so - it's scandalous really. Sounds like the second lot were just as bad.

If they won't run that case to trial, they don't know what the hell they are doing. 

I do this for a living too. And it really hacks me off when idiots like that conspire to give us all a bad name.

strtdv

chillidoggy said:

Isn't there something about having right of way when turning into a major to a minor road in the Highway Code?

Won't apply here as the front of the lorry hasn't extended beyond the give way line on the road, but yes, that's basically what "yield/give way" means

Stratavarious

chillidoggy said:

Isn't there something about having right of way when turning into a major to a minor road in the Highway Code?

As i understand it, unless you have confirmed it is safe to enter, you wait in the central reservation. 

Unless I am misreading it, lorries are to be given special attention and a wide berth and can’t be expected to be in their lane when turning.

RULE 170 & RULE 221 cover it.

I am teaching my daughter to drive...  

TheBigDipper

This sort of thing is always an emotional rollercoaster, so you've got my sympathy, FWIW. 

Some non-judgemental statements...
- Unless you broke some other traffic law, such as crossing a solid white line or turning right when there's a "no right turn" sign, then it's not illegal to cut the corner. It may not be safe, wise or done in a skilful way, but it's not illegal. We don't teach learners to do it, and they'll fail their L test if they do it on test - but not because it's illegal. It's because they are deemed to be inexperienced and unable to decide if it's safe or not.
- It's everyone's responsibility to avoid crashes by being considerate to other road users.
- Generally, people should be able to stop on their side of the road (if there is one) in the distance they can see to be clear.

Some judgemental observations...
- You cut the corner to make that turn into a road that was veering off to the right with high hedges. The course you selected destroyed your view of what was likely to come the other way. If you had stayed wide, on the left, your view of that obscured right hand bend would have been better. The truck coming the other way would have seen you earlier and might have been able to stop. You might have seen the truck coming the other way earlier than you did.

That's your error. If you hadn't taken the course you did, you might have been able to avoid getting hit by seeing the danger sooner, when you had more time to do something about it. 

- The truck probably positioned itself to the right so it could get around the bend without hitting the left hand side of the hedge. Clearly it wasn't positioned far enough over to see you early enough to stop.

That's his error. He couldn't stop in the distance he could see to be clear. 

So, I can understand why the insurers are going 50/50. Based on the information we've got here, you're both at fault and none of it is to do with breaking a law. If either insurance company thought a law had been broken they'd potentially be trying to get the other side convicted, as it's very hard to defend an insurance claim if you've already been given 3 points for what you did. 

If one of my advanced riding students (I'm a qualified advanced motorcycling instructor) had done what you or the truck driver did, I'd have asked them why they sacrificed view and safety for a poor course (you) or drove too fast for their view and stopping distance (the trucker). Both decisions were poor. It's just bad luck that they happened at the same time in the same place or you'd both have gotten away with it. 

Johnnyseven

It's not all about where your car was when it was hit, how it got there also matters. From the second photo it looks like the angle at which you cut the corner was a contributing factor to the lorry hitting you where it did. A squarer angle may have avoided the collision. Also, if you had turned in only in your lane you most probably wouldn't have been hit as you would have wider to the inside of your lane which would have made you visible to the lorry driver earlier as they came around the bend.

Tex Mexico

Well, I've spoken to my insurance and the claims handler advised on reviewing the situation and my evidence that although I did cut the corner they would normally consider the fact that I was immobile at the time of the collision more important as it means I had given myself enough time and visibility to stop but the other driver hadn't.

However he did also say that in his experience where there's any doubt at all the third party's insurance will rule 50/50 by default. My claim is now being referred to my third party team who will evaluate whether they can argue no fault.

If it goes that way, and I accept it likely will, I'll be out a chunk of money and a bit of hassle, and a reminder to be a more careful driver, if only because other people aren't.

Tex Mexico

For anyone interested, by the way, following my insurance's advice I've made an accident diagram using comparative geometry from the photos. This is better because my photos are all wide-angle and completely misrepresent the angles and the distances.

https://i.imgur.com/jHDkCMh.jpg

So what this shows is I did cut the corner, as we knew, but nothing like as much as the photos suggest. Really my error is the far-too-steep angle at which I entered the minor road as I only had visibility up to the fork. Still, that should have been enough. Yes I would have seen him encroaching if I'd turned later, but only because I turned later. If I'd made a more correct turn a few seconds earlier I'd still have been sharing my side of the road with the front-end of an oncoming truck.

The wagon driver should have swung out a lot earlier to give himself room and visibility to negotiate the curve. Because he didn't he had to undercook turning around the curve, at which point he should have slowed right down. Instead he kept going, as he told me, at 10-15mph. He didn't have time to stop so he tried to swing back around, which he in fact probably would have had room to do had he not been going so fast. There was maybe a second or two, between me coming to a stop and the collision. In that time at 10mph he would have travelled about the distance of his own vehicle, around 30'. Not uncoincidentally that's about the stopping distance at 10mph, including reaction time and brake lag. Either he only chose to put the brakes on when he saw that I'd stopped, or his reaction times were fucked from being tired. The man's a DHL driver.

The damage is from the front of the wheel arch to the door seam. Just look how far over he would have been at the first point of impact. I don't see how approaching a give-way at 10mph with your front-end hanging halfway over the oncoming lane is a responsible manoeuvre. Better or worse than cutting a right turn too fine? Decide for yourselves.

I realise none of this is likely to sway his insurers, who will be in no hurry to be fixing my car while I swan about in a courtesy on their dime. Oh well.

WiresDreamDisasters

Since we're still playing fun and games, do you fancy painting in a line on that photo that indicates your trajectory?

Yes I would have seen him encroaching if I'd turned later, but only because I turned later.

Sorry to get hung up on this. But turning when you did is not the correct way to drive. Period. You were supposed to turn later for your own safety and the safety of other drivers on the road.

Johnnyseven

That diagram makes your case look weaker tbh. It shows that the lorry couldn't have exited the road without crossing the centreline and that you crossed his path. Surely he had right of way over you? What you should have done is waited at the junction for him to get out of the way before turning in, you have a responsibilty to check it's safe to turn into the side road.

poopot

WiresDreamDisasters said:

So hold up... I point out some logical observations from looking at photos... and I get told the road markings are clear and that I'm just being antagonistic because apparently it's "my thing"  ....

... and a bunch of other people turn up and say the same thing I was saying... and all of a sudden the road markings are completely fucked but it's all gravy and drive safe now ya hear!?!

Yeah, that's perfectly reasonable behaviour. I'd like an apology.

He’s put you back on ignore Drew so he won’t see your post....

unless someone else quotes it that is

Dominic

I wouldn't use that diagram if I was you............it will do you no favours

Paul_C

Tex Mexico said:

Bummer.



I'm not the best driver in the world, but I reckon I could have navigated round that lorry looking at how much room there appears to be, rather than just sit there and let it hit me.

Nevertheless I wasn't there so it's very hard to know for sure.

strtdv

@TheBigDipper has the correct take. Neither vehicle was breaking any laws at the time of the incident, and both were driving in a suboptimal way which contributed to what happened, so the insurance will likely go 50:50.

p90fool

Johnnyseven said:

That diagram makes your case look weaker tbh. It shows that the lorry couldn't have exited the road without crossing the centreline and that you crossed his path. 

It does look weaker, but only because the shadow from the hedge makes it look like the lorry was on a road narrower than the vehicle. 
If you imagine where the tarmac actually is then it looks like he's swinging wider than was necessary. 

Unfortunately the extent of the tarmac's width is not visible in that pic, shame Google took it at the wrong time of day. 

Wazmeister

Im not an expert (although the wife probably is...), but it sadly looks like its got 50/50 written all over it...

Feel your frustration mate

TheBigDipper

I don't want to rub salt into anything, but just take a look at the two different car positions I've drawn onto the satellite pic. If you make your decision to cross the carriageway when you're at position no 1, then you can't see much of what's around the bend and high hedge. Drive up to the end of the turn right lane, position no 2, and you can see much more of what's coming the other way. Road designers don't always get it right, but this turn right lane goes that far for a reason.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qeaupsihqjkvtt9/Image 08-08-2020 at 15.07-1-1.jpg?raw=1

The truck driver might say that he had a perfect view until you appeared out of nowhere and slammed your brakes on in his path. For him, this might be about keeping his job. You never know. 

WiresDreamDisasters

TheBigDipper said:

I don't want to rub salt into anything, but just take a look at the two different car positions I've drawn onto the satellite pic. If you make your decision to cross the carriageway when you're at position no 1, then you can't see much of what's around the bend and high hedge. Drive up to the end of the turn right lane, position no 2, and you can see much more of what's coming the other way. Road designers don't always get it right, but this turn right lane goes that far for a reason.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qeaupsihqjkvtt9/Image 08-08-2020 at 15.07-1-1.jpg?raw=1

The truck driver might say that he had a perfect view until you appeared out of nowhere and slammed your brakes on in his path. For him, this might be about keeping his job. You never know. 

This absolutely. This almost entirely represents what I was taught when I learned to drive in 2018/2019 and passed my test this time last year. Making decisions too early is just as dangerous as making decisions too late. There is an optimal time to make a decision to turn, and judging by what we're seeing here, OP didn't make his decision in the optimal window.

But as you can all probably tell. He's doing his utmost to put himself in the right. Like most drivers do, tbh. This is just another one of "those" threads.