Can modes make you more creative?

viz

horse said:

Thanks everyone - I think this has helped to clear up some incorrect assumptions on my part.

One useful aspect is that up until now I would often have relied on my ear to know whether to play the note a whole tone or semi tone below the tonic (if that's the right term?). Sometimes I'd get that wrong, but being more aware of the modes can help me be more confident in that type of decision when improvising.

Relying on your ear is exactly the right approach. You will find it easier automatically to play the right note than deliberately to play the wrong one. The theory is mainly there to explain how and why it works. Ok, it might then provide a rule which can help your fingers navigate around the fretboard, but the MOST important thing is for your ear to hear the music and for your heart to feel it 

Relying on your ear is a bit like, I don’t know, painting a picture - it will be easier for you to select blue for the sea, rather than pink, without you having to know the laws of physics and chemistry. 

viz

horse said:

viz said:

horse said:

viz said:

digitalkettle said:

horse said:

I think because I used to hear for example about the modes Malmsteen was using, I thought he was making a conscious decision to pick particular scales which then sounded a certain way. But maybe in fact it is the chords he chose when composing which implied those particular scales / arpeggios - 2 sides of the same coin if I understand what you are getting at?

Very broadly speaking, with YJM, anything that sounds different to the natural major scale (and its modes) will probably be either the harmonic minor scale (and its fifth mode phrygian dominant) or diminished (quite often arpeggios, sometimes scalar).

Yes, the scale/arp/note choices are driven by the neo-classical chord progressions...stuff with diminished chords...V7 -> i resolutions, etc. That is what I'm getting at in a general sense with the 'two sides of the same coin' thing.

I was going to say the same. 99% of yngwie is minor, and he lays on the dominant chord very thickly - ie he harbours on the phrygian dominant. In fact he hardly ever (actually I think it is actually never) plays the harmonic minor over the tonic - he plays aeolian. But he spends at least 50% of his widdle-time on the V chord, which he majorises, thus playing the phrygian dominant scale. 

 That's over my head, but in your view are his lead note choices intrinsic to the chord progressions he has chosen, or are they one choice from a number of potential choices that could work over those progressions?

The former.

1) He plays minor pieces
2) he prefers a major V chord (like Vivaldi, Bach etc)
3) He loves lingering on the V chord. He can’t get enough of it
4) Apart from the majorised V, he never deviates from the notes in the key (apart from the odd blue note in his take on da blooz)


Therefore he automatically plays phrygian dominant scales incessantly - it’s unavoidable if you follow 1-4 above. And we love him for it. Amusingly he even calls it phrygian. 

The other thing he loves is diminished arpeggii, which, happily for him, also sit within the phrygian dominant scale - by missing out the 1, 4 and 6 (and 8) of the phrygian dominant scale you get the diminished arp. 

 That's really helpful thank you Viz. So I guess he can only use that diminished arp over the major V chord?

What would be the most exaggerated example you can think of where he lingers on the major V?

just ewe-chewbed Yngwie Solo, this is the first thing that came up. The first 33 seconds of this, before a V-i resolution to A minor (well, Ab detuned) https://youtu.be/nMjzGqmY7sM

This is the 2nd thing that came up. The first 20 seconds before a V-i resolution to A minor: https://youtu.be/xeZnJlqARZ8

this is the 3rd thing that came up. Ignoring the first few secs, but from 0:04 to 0:08 before a V-i resolution to F#m: https://youtu.be/9RuWcMC3dYA

This is the 4th thing that came up. The first 27 secs before a V-i resolution to A minor.  https://youtu.be/mGvc2UKtddM

etc

etc

etc

Re his diminished scales, as mentioned he uses it over the V - so if he’s in A minor, on the E7 chord he plays F diminished - a semitone above the V - to facilitate his phrygian dominant.  

Like Bach and Vivaldi etc he is also fond of using secondary dominants (particularly the V of the V), so in the case of A minor, that would be a B7, over which he plays another diminished arp - E dim (which is the same as C dim, so also a semitone above the V). 

Those are the two main ways he deploys diminished arps. 

horse

viz said:

horse said:

viz said:

horse said:

viz said:

digitalkettle said:

horse said:

I think because I used to hear for example about the modes Malmsteen was using, I thought he was making a conscious decision to pick particular scales which then sounded a certain way. But maybe in fact it is the chords he chose when composing which implied those particular scales / arpeggios - 2 sides of the same coin if I understand what you are getting at?

Very broadly speaking, with YJM, anything that sounds different to the natural major scale (and its modes) will probably be either the harmonic minor scale (and its fifth mode phrygian dominant) or diminished (quite often arpeggios, sometimes scalar).

Yes, the scale/arp/note choices are driven by the neo-classical chord progressions...stuff with diminished chords...V7 -> i resolutions, etc. That is what I'm getting at in a general sense with the 'two sides of the same coin' thing.

I was going to say the same. 99% of yngwie is minor, and he lays on the dominant chord very thickly - ie he harbours on the phrygian dominant. In fact he hardly ever (actually I think it is actually never) plays the harmonic minor over the tonic - he plays aeolian. But he spends at least 50% of his widdle-time on the V chord, which he majorises, thus playing the phrygian dominant scale. 

 That's over my head, but in your view are his lead note choices intrinsic to the chord progressions he has chosen, or are they one choice from a number of potential choices that could work over those progressions?

The former.

1) He plays minor pieces
2) he prefers a major V chord (like Vivaldi, Bach etc)
3) He loves lingering on the V chord. He can’t get enough of it
4) Apart from the majorised V, he never deviates from the notes in the key (apart from the odd blue note in his take on da blooz)


Therefore he automatically plays phrygian dominant scales incessantly - it’s unavoidable if you follow 1-4 above. And we love him for it. Amusingly he even calls it phrygian. 

The other thing he loves is diminished arpeggii, which, happily for him, also sit within the phrygian dominant scale - by missing out the 1, 4 and 6 (and 8) of the phrygian dominant scale you get the diminished arp. 

 That's really helpful thank you Viz. So I guess he can only use that diminished arp over the major V chord?

What would be the most exaggerated example you can think of where he lingers on the major V?

just ewe-chewbed Yngwie Solo, this is the first thing that came up. The first 33 seconds of this, before a V-i resolution to A minor (well, Ab detuned) https://youtu.be/nMjzGqmY7sM

This is the 2nd thing that came up. The first 20 seconds before a V-i resolution to A minor: https://youtu.be/xeZnJlqARZ8

this is the 3rd thing that came up. Ignoring the first few secs, but from 0:04 to 0:08 before a V-i resolution to F#m: https://youtu.be/9RuWcMC3dYA

This is the 4th thing that came up. The first 27 secs before a V-i resolution to A minor.  https://youtu.be/mGvc2UKtddM

etc

etc

etc

Re his diminished scales, as mentioned he uses it over the V - so if he’s in A minor, on the E7 chord he plays F diminished - a semitone above the V - to facilitate his phrygian dominant.  

Like Bach and Vivaldi etc he is also fond of using secondary dominants (particularly the V of the V), so in the case of A minor, that would be a B7, over which he plays another diminished arp - E dim (which is the same as C dim, so also a semitone above the V). 

Those are the two main ways he deploys diminished arps. 

 Thanks again. Sometimes the change in mode is much more obvious to my ears than others. I guess the speed is partly a factor there.

I suppose as YJM is often soloing without backing he has a lot of freedom to flip between modes at will.

viz

Yes, speed and no backing don’t help. I think the way to think is harmony first, mode second. His scale notes follow suit. 

https://youtu.be/nMjzGqmY7sM

For example in the first clip, it’s like this:

0:00-0:03 - chord is B7; he’s playing B phrygian dominant (well, C diminished), ready for V-I resolution to E. 

0:03-0:06 - the long E note, which subtly changes role from being the resolved note to being a new V in the key of A minor. This is clarified at the end of the solo, but you can immediately tell it’s a V because of the next bit:

0:06-0:25 - long section over E. the key is A minor, the chord is the V (E), so he’s playing the scale E phrygian dominant. You can tell the E has stopped being the tonic from the instant that first long note is over and he plays an F. That shouts out “uh-oh, he’s playing phrygian dominant! The E isn’t a tonic, it’s a dominant of A minor!”

0:26 - a quick swept arpeggio in the i chord - A minor - because he can’t help himself, but it’s not the full resolution yet, because he immediately switches back to:

0:26-0:31 - more E phrygian dominant lickery

0:31 the bass or keyboard or whatever it is moves from E to G# (the leading note of A), ready for the V-i resolution

0:32 0:58 - fully resolved to A minor. 

During that last section he does still hark back to using the G# in places (there’s two at 0:34, one at 00:42, so he’s playing a bit of A harmonic minor there, but in the main he’s fully resolved to A minor / A Aeolian with a collapsed G (0:35, 0:40, 0:41). Though he does do a couple of micro switches back to the V - gosh he’s a naughty fellow - there’s a little E major chord at 0:45 and two quick E major chords at 0:54 and 0:55, which deploy the G#, but they’re just instantaneous dominants if you will. 

horse

viz said:

Yes, speed and no backing don’t help. I think the way to think is harmony first, mode second. His scale notes follow suit. 

https://youtu.be/nMjzGqmY7sM

For example in the first clip, it’s like this:

0:00-0:03 - chord is B7; he’s playing B phrygian dominant (well, C diminished), ready for V-I resolution to E. 

0:03-0:06 - the long E note, which subtly changes role from being the resolved note to being a new V in the key of A minor. This is clarified at the end of the solo, but you can immediately tell it’s a V because of the next bit:

0:06-0:25 - long section over E. the key is A minor, the chord is the V (E), so he’s playing the scale E phrygian dominant. You can tell the E has stopped being the tonic from the instant that first long note is over and he plays an F. That shouts out “uh-oh, he’s playing phrygian dominant! The E isn’t a tonic, it’s a dominant of A minor!”

0:26 - a quick swept arpeggio in the i chord - A minor - because he can’t help himself, but it’s not the full resolution yet, because he immediately switches back to:

0:26-0:31 - more E phrygian dominant lickery

0:31 the bass or keyboard or whatever it is moves from E to G# (the leading note of A), ready for the V-i resolution

0:32 0:58 - fully resolved to A minor. 

During that last section he does still hark back to using the G# in places (there’s two at 0:34, one at 00:42, so he’s playing a bit of A harmonic minor there, but in the main he’s fully resolved to A minor / A Aeolian with a collapsed G (0:35, 0:40, 0:41). Though he does do a couple of micro switches back to the V - gosh he’s a naughty fellow - there’s a little E major chord at 0:45 and two quick E major chords at 0:54 and 0:55, which deploy the G#, but they’re just instantaneous dominants if you will. 

 Some of the clues are quite subtle or split second then I see - like the brief F from the long held E. I can't imagine how many hours it takes to be able to interpret what you hear like that!

viz

It’s probably partly 20 years’ classical music upbringing within a family consisting almost exclusively of musicians, followed by 30 years’ playing, listening, reading, writing and teaching music but it’s also a question of your ear ignoring all the notes apart from the one or two you’re listening for. They stick out like sore thumbs. 

Rocker

First things first.  Decide what the song is to be about.  Write the song.  At the same time create a tune that fits the song.  Modify the lyrics or the tune to fit.  Then take your guitar or keyboard, decide on and fit the chords/solo to the song.

There are enough songs out there that were written from a theoretical approach.  Please don't add to the list.

horse

Rocker said:

First things first.  Decide what the song is to be about.  Write the song.  At the same time create a tune that fits the song.  Modify the lyrics or the tune to fit.  Then take your guitar or keyboard, decide on and fit the chords/solo to the song.

There are enough songs out there that were written from a theoretical approach.  Please don't add to the list.

Lol - I'd hate to offend you with my music!

horse

@viz - one further question if you don't mind please:

I've been messing around with the horn parts from this track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLP0oxipSs

Now that I've actually taken time to write down the notes that sound right, it turns out it is the scale of Ab major, despite the riffs being based on Bb minor - so presumably this piece of music is in Bb dorian?

Can you (e.g. you with your trained ear) just hear that from the "collective sound" the notes of the riffs make and know it as dorian?

viz

horse said:

@viz - one further question if you don't mind please:

I've been messing around with the horn parts from this track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLP0oxipSs

Now that I've actually taken time to write down the notes that sound right, it turns out it is the scale of Ab major, despite the riffs being based on Bb minor - so presumably this piece of music is in Bb dorian?

Can you (e.g. you with your trained ear) just hear that from the "collective sound" the notes of the riffs make and know it as dorian?

Yep, I’d hear it instantly as Bb minor, then I’d note your clean guitar riffs (that classic dorianish fret 8 -> fret 6 vamp on the 2nd and 3rd string in the blues box of Bb), so that G on the B string adding a major 6th, so it’s Bb Dorian. 

digitalkettle

Relevant: https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/187708/learning-to-target-chord-tones

hotpickups

During lockdown I set myself the challenge to learn modes so I can be more creative in my solo playing. I am no expert still but learning them has given me some great ideas and licks that I would never have done beforehand. Biggest thing I have learnt though when writing a guitar solo for example is to put the guitar down and hear playback of the chord progression and attempt to sing the solo. Doesn't have to be perfect but it will give you some ideas. You'll find all the cool sounds will be in those modes when you pick up the guitar and play what you sang. Works for me. 

Two things I'll remember about lockdown will be learning those modes and watching and massively getting into 'Friday Night Dinner'. and 'Tiger King' of course LOL

viz

hotpickups said:

During lockdown I set myself the challenge to learn modes so I can be more creative in my solo playing. I am no expert still but learning them has given me some great ideas and licks that I would never have done beforehand. Biggest thing I have learnt though when writing a guitar solo for example is to put the guitar down and hear playback of the chord progression and attempt to sing the solo. Doesn't have to be perfect but it will give you some ideas. You'll find all the cool sounds will be in those modes when you pick up the guitar and play what you sang. Works for me. 

Two things I'll remember about lockdown will be learning those modes and watching and massively getting into 'Friday Night Dinner'. and 'Tiger King' of course LOL

Glad to hear you’re singing

hotpickups

viz said:

hotpickups said:

During lockdown I set myself the challenge to learn modes so I can be more creative in my solo playing. I am no expert still but learning them has given me some great ideas and licks that I would never have done beforehand. Biggest thing I have learnt though when writing a guitar solo for example is to put the guitar down and hear playback of the chord progression and attempt to sing the solo. Doesn't have to be perfect but it will give you some ideas. You'll find all the cool sounds will be in those modes when you pick up the guitar and play what you sang. Works for me. 

Two things I'll remember about lockdown will be learning those modes and watching and massively getting into 'Friday Night Dinner'. and 'Tiger King' of course LOL

Glad to hear you’re singing

It ain't pretty @viz but it certainly sounds better when on the guitar again