Intervals and transcription

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rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 1374
I am trying to learn more about theory and one of the enjoyable and interesting exercises I do is to work out solos, tab them, and then write out the intervals underneath each tabbed note as the note relates to the root of the key. I then look at the various modes and figure out use of modes and scales and look for patterns in note selection. 

Quick question. I am aware that I am now starting to look at slightly more complex songs and am wondering whether I should analyse the intervals as they relate to the key, the underlying chord (playing the changes) or actually both/either.

i would ask my teacher but keep forgetting!
An official Foo liked guitarist since 2024
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    rsvmark said:
    I am trying to learn more about theory and one of the enjoyable and interesting exercises I do is to work out solos, tab them, and then write out the intervals underneath each tabbed note as the note relates to the root of the key. I then look at the various modes and figure out use of modes and scales and look for patterns in note selection. 

    Quick question. I am aware that I am now starting to look at slightly more complex songs and am wondering whether I should analyse the intervals as they relate to the key, the underlying chord (playing the changes) or actually both/either.

    i would ask my teacher but keep forgetting!
    Both but do one and come back here and I'll take you through how I approach it.

    There are some tricks to doing this.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited August 2020
    Yup, both. 

    Like if a song goes Am-D, that’s i-IV. The D-chord is major, so it has a major 3rd. That is also a major 6th above the A minor chord. 

    Discovery: Minor song with a major 6th?

    Revelation: Ooh, must be Dorian!

    Conclusion: Dorian is where you have a minor i and a major IV. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    @viz expert stuff as always but it's easier to understand when you don't use roman numerals . Minor song with a major 6th is perfect and easy to understand. When you use Roman numerals it's basically adding a pointless layer that has to be decrypted. Is there any point using them ? 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited August 2020
    Danny1969 said:
    @viz expert stuff as always but it's easier to understand when you don't use roman numerals . Minor song with a major 6th is perfect and easy to understand. When you use Roman numerals it's basically adding a pointless layer that has to be decrypted. Is there any point using them ? 
    I was just trying to say major 6th on the one-chord and major 3rd on the four-chord are the same note, as that was regarding the specific question asked. 

    So if you notice the four-chord has a major 3rd, then only by knowing that’s the major 6th of the one chord, can you conclude you’re in dorian. 

    So to answer RSV’s question, you do really need to understand the interval with respect to the chord you’re on, as well as to the one-chord. 

    FWIW I think that knowing the harmony in terms of I ii iii IV V vi vii (in a major key, for example) is probably THE most important, and thankfully also THE simplest step in harmonic understanding. Harmonising the major and minor scales are Lesson 1 in harmony. And roman numerals are used solely so as not to confuse chord numbers with the myriad of other numbers in music theory (fret numbers, string numbers, fingerings, beats in a bar, bar numbers, intervals, inversions, figured bass, chord extensions / suspensions, etc, etc)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited August 2020
    But the proof is in the pudding, and you’re right; if someone doesn’t know what the roman numerals refer to - doesn’t know the harmonic sequence of a scale or how to write it - then yup, my post could well be confusing!

    I assume most people who talk about intervals and chords know what a IV chord means, but maybe I’m wrong. It’s happened before
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    viz said:
    But the proof is in the pudding, and you’re right; if someone doesn’t know what the roman numerals refer to - doesn’t know the harmonic sequence of a scale or how to write it - then yup, my post could well be confusing!

    I assume most people who talk about intervals and chords know what a IV chord means, but maybe I’m wrong. It’s happened before
    I spose it's a traditional thing and the correct way of writing it but we don't use RM for anything else, seems pointless to use it for music. That aside your analyst of it is top notch and of value to me and the rest of us so keep it coming  
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited August 2020
    Danny1969 said:
    viz said:
    But the proof is in the pudding, and you’re right; if someone doesn’t know what the roman numerals refer to - doesn’t know the harmonic sequence of a scale or how to write it - then yup, my post could well be confusing!

    I assume most people who talk about intervals and chords know what a IV chord means, but maybe I’m wrong. It’s happened before
    I spose it's a traditional thing and the correct way of writing it but we don't use RM for anything else, seems pointless to use it for music. That aside your analyst of it is top notch and of value to me and the rest of us so keep it coming  

    Oh ok, right, I get you now. Yup so what do you call a IV chord? The subdominant? Or a 4-chord? Or something else? It never occurred to me that roman numerals was a source of confusion but there you are! I tend to shy away from names like subdominant, mediant etc coz I worry they’re gobbledy-gook, but I thought IV, iii, etc were quite well accepted. 

    I think because I’m originally a classical musician who has carried that over into my rock and jazz, I use classical terminology because it’s soooo well underpinned, but thinking (probaby wrongly) that it’s universal terminology. 

    Anyway, apologies as always to everyone if I’ve managed to overcomplicate where before there was simplicity! Argghhh!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • I didn't realise that using Roman numerals was an issue. I thought it was a standard method.

    It's not a competition.
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  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 1374
    Thank you all. Not sure I understood all that but the answer appears to be both! Will do!

    Am I right in thinking that basically you need to know how any given note relates to the chord being played at the time but you always have a tonal ‘home’ ie the tonic of the 1 chord. 
    An official Foo liked guitarist since 2024
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited August 2020
    Yep. 

    (Apart from if you’ve modulated to another key, but yep basically)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    I didn't realise that using Roman numerals was an issue. I thought it was a standard method.

    It seems in a lot of schools they are no longer taught. Student of mine had no idea IV was the 4th ....never seen numerals before. Is it not easier just to refer to notes \ chords as 2nd, minor 3rd, 6th etc ? Then anyone can instantly see what it is without converting the RM into a normal number. 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • mrkbmrkb Frets: 6637
    I use and understand Roman numerals. It’s common on guitar teaching sites.
    Karma......
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    Danny1969 said:
    I didn't realise that using Roman numerals was an issue. I thought it was a standard method.

    It seems in a lot of schools they are no longer taught. Student of mine had no idea IV was the 4th ....never seen numerals before. Is it not easier just to refer to notes \ chords as 2nd, minor 3rd, 6th etc ? Then anyone can instantly see what it is without converting the RM into a normal number. 


    I think it’s quite a good idea to teach arabic numbers for intervals, and roman numerals (is that what RM is?) for chords, so people can easily distinguish. After all there are only 7 to remember, and most people are familiar with them. They also let one distinguish easily between major and minor. And the practice has been around for 200 years. But if people don’t want to teach ii V I, then 251 is probably fine. 

    For me the most important thing is to think harmonically according to the chord numbers. I think I’ll stick with Roman Numerals though and hope people can learn them!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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