Practice - - The Sweet child o mine final solo ascending runs , quite speedy

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hollywoodroxhollywoodrox Frets: 4085
edited August 2020 in Technique
Flipping Speed 

Yes there are two fast ascending runs in the darn Song , the first one which is “THE” run which is usually talked about , then just before it finishes and goes to the outro there is another little bugger .

Its literally piss easy compared to some of the stuff most play on here , I did get it up to speed a few years ago playing to a backing track  but it was probably a bit sloppy . It seems easier to play to a backing track   than to play to the actual track  (Which is what I practice to )

I use the amazing slow downer software  to learn most solos . I’m currently stuck on about 80% 
at the moment . Last few days I have been trying the old , try it as fast as you can at about 80% or 90 % and back it down managed a few runs at 85% then it fell apart and practicing after just made it deteriorate further .

I have arrived then at the following plan . I am going to start at 79% on Monday Officially (will still practice it over weekend )  then each week I will raise the Speed 1%  focusing on these two runs  as these are my sticking points .  I usually practice things for 20 minutes which seems an optimum time before the brain gets fed up according to books on learning I read. I usually arrange them  run 1 - 10 minutes  run 2 - 10 minutes  then repeat . I focus intently on this task for the allotted time using the timer on the iPad . This makes certain that the time is spent doing the task  as I find that 40 minutes pure practice can take up an hour or more  once you account for cueing up the song , having a drink of water, going for a wee etc .

anyway hopefully this will yield results . It’s very annoying when you can play the so,o slow but not fast.
The popular saying is that if you can play it slow you can play it fast . Perhaps in the past I have been to quick to try to push the speed  .

although I am thinking 3 or 4 reps  a day at a few percent faster  Will give a feeling for the speed , but I find longer periods result in the run falling apart as mentioned before .

This also allows time to learn new songs etc too etc 


So that is my plan , I am now committed  to follow it .

thank you anybody who has read this far  please feel free to mention some of your Nemesis songs 
and if you are currently or planning to do something similar .


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Comments

  • Or maybe just play the whole song 20% slower?
    'Vot eva happened to the Transylvanian Tvist?'
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  • Or maybe just play the whole song 20% slower?
    Noooooo Slash would cry 
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  • newi123newi123 Frets: 850
    One of the many things i`ve never properly learned - in fact, it really annoys our singer that I don`t play the solo note for note (as its a sing along classic), which means he doesn`t want to play the song, which means I don`t have to learn it - QED! 

    Good luck!
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  • Thing is, you can build speed to an extent but why stress over trying to match someone else? Be yourself and play it your way, if it's a little slower there's nowt wrong with that.
    'Vot eva happened to the Transylvanian Tvist?'
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  • FarleyUKFarleyUK Frets: 2377
    Thing is, you can build speed to an extent but why stress over trying to match someone else? Be yourself and play it your way, if it's a little slower there's nowt wrong with that.
    Exactly this.

    I always take the view, as a lead player, that as long as the key phrases people would recognise are there (and you could argue the ascending runs in SCOM meet that definition), then you can play the solo in 'your' way (as long as it's in key and retains a similar feel!).

    I don't play the ascending runs in this note for note, and nobody has ever picked me up on it - in fact, I get the opposite! 

    @newi123 - maybe suggest to your singer you'll learn it note for note if he sings it exactly like Axl Rose?
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  • If you can't match speed, learn to manipulate the rhythm of the song with your phrasing to give the impression of fast runs. Jeff Healey is a master at this.
    'Vot eva happened to the Transylvanian Tvist?'
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  • Wis awarded to @FarleyUK for the Axl comment at the end :)
    'Vot eva happened to the Transylvanian Tvist?'
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5723
    Use a combination of legato and picking if you cant pick it fast enough, or rearrange the notes to make it easier to play.  

    If you are having problems ascending up the fretboard on the first lick, rearrange the notes so you're staying in one position.  

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  • The runs in SCOM are a pig, especially the one that transitions from the harmonic minor bit to the pentatonic wah bit.

    It's really common with the "start slow, get faster" approach to get stuck at around 80%. I don't know why that number, but it seems to be a frequent problem. I read this article near the start of lockdown, and it's really changed things for me. Here are the most important bits:

    Noa Kageyama said:

      ...in the early stages of learning a skill, emphasizing accuracy can absolutely lead to more accurate results in the short term – but this may come at the expense of long-term development. Which actually makes a lot of sense.

    Because whether you play the harp, guitar, piano, or harmonica, when you play a passage slowly, the efficiency of your motor movements doesn’t matter so much. You can still play pretty accurately even if you’re doing things with your hands/fingers/arms that won’t work at faster tempos. Maybe that means you are using excessive finger pressure, or lifting your fingers higher than necessary, but either way, you may be developing “slow habits” that will hold you back as you begin to increase the speed. Habits and mechanics that will eventually have to be discarded or unlearned, in favor of more efficient and speed-friendly mechanics which do work at the final tempo.

    Noa then shared this video which I found pretty helpful:



    Using that technique I managed to conquer the breakdown from Warheads by Extreme, which I'd been stuck on for months or possibly years. Since then I've used the technique in that video a bit less. Now I'm tending to do this:

    Play the first beat of the lick (and probably the first note from the next beat, so I start and finish on a click) at full speed, or possibly even faster (I want full speed to feel easy). Repeat until that's flowing. 

    Repeat with the next beat, and so on.

    Then try it in two beat pairings: beats 1&2, 2&3, 3&4 etc

    By this point I've got a decent idea of where the problems are and can focus in on those. But yeah, I'm finding this much more effective than starting slow. It's definitely necessary to learn things slowly, so they're accurate, but building speed gradually doesn't seem to work a lot of the time, especially where picking is involved.
    My YouTube channel, Half Speed Solos: classic guitar solos demonstrated at half speed with scrolling tab and no waffle.
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    edited August 2020
    How are you playing the lick? There are many ways posted on the internet in various tutorials.

    I think Uncle Ben probably has it nailed for the way Slash plays it.


    But, as I'm not in his league, I had to find my own way, which has a little cheat as shown in the picture below that avoids the tricky bit that alternates between the 1st and 2nd strings. Unfortunately it doesn't give sound of the slide up from the A to the B but it's a more bullet proof method for me. And I think it's the same notes.

    https://i.imgur.com/6cOrq9S.png

    Of course I don't know if this is 100% correct I welcome any corrections or better ideas.

    It's not a competition.
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  • xscaramangaxscaramanga Frets: 436
    edited August 2020


    https://i.imgur.com/6cOrq9S.png

    Of course I don't know it this is 100% correct I welcome any corrections or better ideas.

    I haven't actually made this video public yet, but since it's relevant to the discussion, here's what I think is happening:

    (If you don't want to watch it all, I play the lick in question full speed at 0:32 and at half speed with tab at 2:20.) 




    I think this is also how John Wheatcroft transcribed it for Guitar Techniques a few years back, and he's pretty reliable for this stuff. 

    EDIT: posting that brought up this guy in my recommended videos, who has reached pretty much the same conclusion as Ben Eller. 
    My YouTube channel, Half Speed Solos: classic guitar solos demonstrated at half speed with scrolling tab and no waffle.
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    edited August 2020


    https://i.imgur.com/6cOrq9S.png

    Of course I don't know it this is 100% correct I welcome any corrections or better ideas.

    I haven't actually made this video public yet, but since it's relevant to the discussion, here's what I think is happening:

    (If you don't want to watch it all, I play the lick in question full speed at 0:32 and at half speed with tab at 2:20.) 




    I think this is also how John Wheatcroft transcribed it for Guitar Techniques a few years back, and he's pretty reliable for this stuff. 

    I think that's very close to what I transcribed, except you do a bend from the first F# to the G instead a hammer on and pull off. I'm pleased that I'm reasonably close to something a player of your calibre (way better than me) would play. You also solve what I hear as a slide from the A to B by doing a bend.

    It's not a competition.
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  • @jonnyscaramanga I think you edited your earlier post because the video doesn't play any more, so you need to reinsert the link. I've also done the same thing in my reply, but your video doesn't need to play in my post, if it plays in your post.

    It's not a competition.
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  • I think that's very close to what I transcribed, except you do a bend from the first F# to the G instead a hammer on and pull off. I'm pleased that I'm reasonably close to something a player of your calibre (way better than me) would play. You also solve what I hear as a slide from the A to B by doing a bend.

    Yeah, I meant to say, I'm not sure your "cheat" is in fact a cheat. I think it might be right, hence my posting. Thanks for the kind words. Not sure why my video hasn't embedded, but never mind. On the A to B I'm not convinced by Ben's B string slide, but I haven't got time to listen to it super closely right now.

    @jonnyscaramanga I think you edited your earlier post because the video doesn't play any more, so you need to reinsert the link. I've also done the same thing in my reply, but your video doesn't need to play in my post, if it plays in your post.


    Ah, thanks. I'll fix that.

    My YouTube channel, Half Speed Solos: classic guitar solos demonstrated at half speed with scrolling tab and no waffle.
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  • newi123 said:
    One of the many things i`ve never properly learned - in fact, it really annoys our singer that I don`t play the solo note for note (as its a sing along classic), which means he doesn`t want to play the song, which means I don`t have to learn it - QED! 

    Good luck!
    Thanks man 
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  • The runs in SCOM are a pig, especially the one that transitions from the harmonic minor bit to the pentatonic wah bit.

    It's really common with the "start slow, get faster" approach to get stuck at around 80%. I don't know why that number, but it seems to be a frequent problem. I read this article near the start of lockdown, and it's really changed things for me. Here are the most important bits:

    Noa Kageyama said:

      ...in the early stages of learning a skill, emphasizing accuracy can absolutely lead to more accurate results in the short term – but this may come at the expense of long-term development. Which actually makes a lot of sense.

    Because whether you play the harp, guitar, piano, or harmonica, when you play a passage slowly, the efficiency of your motor movements doesn’t matter so much. You can still play pretty accurately even if you’re doing things with your hands/fingers/arms that won’t work at faster tempos. Maybe that means you are using excessive finger pressure, or lifting your fingers higher than necessary, but either way, you may be developing “slow habits” that will hold you back as you begin to increase the speed. Habits and mechanics that will eventually have to be discarded or unlearned, in favor of more efficient and speed-friendly mechanics which do work at the final tempo.

    Noa then shared this video which I found pretty helpful:



    Using that technique I managed to conquer the breakdown from Warheads by Extreme, which I'd been stuck on for months or possibly years. Since then I've used the technique in that video a bit less. Now I'm tending to do this:

    Play the first beat of the lick (and probably the first note from the next beat, so I start and finish on a click) at full speed, or possibly even faster (I want full speed to feel easy). Repeat until that's flowing. 

    Repeat with the next beat, and so on.

    Then try it in two beat pairings: beats 1&2, 2&3, 3&4 etc

    By this point I've got a decent idea of where the problems are and can focus in on those. But yeah, I'm finding this much more effective than starting slow. It's definitely necessary to learn things slowly, so they're accurate, but building speed gradually doesn't seem to work a lot of the time, especially where picking is involved.
    I’m on his mailing list too ,thanks for sharing .  jonnyscaramanga said:


    https://i.imgur.com/6cOrq9S.png

    Of course I don't know it this is 100% correct I welcome any corrections or better ideas.

    I haven't actually made this video public yet, but since it's relevant to the discussion, here's what I think is happening:

    (If you don't want to watch it all, I play the lick in question full speed at 0:32 and at half speed with tab at 2:20.) 




    I think this is also how John Wheatcroft transcribed it for Guitar Techniques a few years back, and he's pretty reliable for this stuff. 

    EDIT: posting that brought up this guy in my recommended videos, who has reached pretty much the same conclusion as Ben Eller. 
    Awesome as usual Johnny , nice one  that LP too , wow
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  • I’m going to read the rest of your comments later ,thanks for the input guys, some good stuff here 
      
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  • hollywoodroxhollywoodrox Frets: 4085
    edited August 2020
    Breakthrough 

    I have found a point where I slip up on the second run that as ends fast. When my little finger is required to be on the 15th fret during the run , it is resting slightly curled a bit too far away  causing a delay or a lack of coordination . 

    I have tried 3 things tonight  focusing on it being in the right place at the right time.
    trying to keep it next to the third finger while as ending
    and using the third finger instead of the little finger (slash is known to do this a lot)

    i have see. Some improvement anyway.

    also have been using a metronome to play small chunks like 5 notes in various parts of the run.
    noticing the little finger seems to have been the main thing, that is where the bottleneck is .

    it does tend to curl up out the way . This run takes part in part of the fingerboard covering frets 12 to 15 which is quite narrow so wether the finger independence exercises will be of benefit, where you try to keep it just above the fretboard will be of help I am not sure . I suppose 5 minutes a day will not hurt ,plus I can continue to focus on the little finger when playing the run  and also try using the 3rd finger too.

    got some nice runs in at 85 /86% 

    put my new black petrucci pick down somewhere and cant find it , so back to my Kirk Hammett green jazz iii

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  • Got some solid runs in at 87% tonight on runs 1 and 2 . Biggest surprise on run 2 which is the one that really kills me  after about  17 minutes at 80 percent in two 19 minute reps  I started knocking the speed up.  Run 2 starts with two repetitive licks  I find on the third one that leads into the rapid ascending bit if I just get a quick downstroke at a certain point it sets me up well for the run allowing a few hundredths of a second grace for anything that might trip me up 

    I’m alternate picking where the fastest bit starts . This is a good start for Monday my official start date. 

    It would make a good progress video but I’m a lazy twat plus I have got to figure out how I would do it. 
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  • How are you playing the lick? There are many ways posted on the internet in various tutorials.

    I think Uncle Ben probably has it nailed for the way Slash plays it.


    But, as I'm not in his league, I had to find my own way, which has a little cheat as shown in the picture below that avoids the tricky bit that alternates between the 1st and 2nd strings. Unfortunately it doesn't give sound of the slide up from the A to the B but it's a more bullet proof method for me. And I think it's the same notes.

    https://i.imgur.com/6cOrq9S.png

    Of course I don't know if this is 100% correct I welcome any corrections or better ideas.

    The 2nd fast run I alternate pick , the first one I play similar to Ben eller , and a latin guy on YouTube who does a scrolling tab . I got them both up to 87 % solid today for a few reps , by just bumping up the speed in the last 2 minutes of my session (I went over a bit after the timer rang as I got carried away lol)  

    was using a tortes jazzIII 1.14   I like jazz III picks, been using the Kirk Hammett for about 4 or 5 years , got a Petrucci one the other day to try, very nice, seems a touch bigger but glides over strings nice , god knows where it is though it disappeared  yesterday when I put it down .

    £1.69 gone in the wink of an eye.  The stubbier are nice for tremolo picking but I find for string crossing and skipping you can get hung up .


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