The Teaching thread, tips on teaching

Danny1969

So one of the most common questions I'm getting when explaining modes is what is the difference between a mode and a scale ? ..... and I have to be honest I'm not entirely sure myself. There's confusion I think because there's both the common major and minor scales among the modes. 

So what's the best way to answer this question in a simple but correct way ? 

Caffeine_Vampire

The 'all modes are derived from the major scale' approach generally works before moving on to explain intervals.

stratman3142

Sounds like a question for the oracle - @viz

I have to confess I've never worried about it myself and have used the terms interchangeably when conversing with others. But when I play a mode (or scale ) I don't really think in terms of the major (or harmonic minor) scale from which it is derived.

ArchtopDave

Modes are Scales. You can view them in a variety of ways. One common way is to cross reference them to the Mode 1 Scale i.e. D Dorian is the 2nd Mode of C Major (Ionian), and contains the same notes as C Major. They can also be viewed as each having a particular sequence of intervals. Additionally they can be cross referenced to the Major, or whichever relevant Scale you want, with the same Root Note, for example, the 3rd and 7th in D Dorian are flattened relative to D Major Scale. Modes have existed for a very long time - the Ancient Greeks are known to have particularly developed modal music, and gave the Modes their names.

viz

ArchtopDave said:

Modes are Scales. You can view them in a variety of ways. One common way is to cross reference them to the Mode 1 Scale i.e. D Dorian is the 2nd Mode of C Major (Ionian), and contains the same notes as C Major. They can also be viewed as each having a particular sequence of intervals. Additionally they can be cross referenced to the Major, or whichever relevant Scale you want, with the same Root Note, for example, the 3rd and 7th in D Dorian are flattened relative to D Major Scale. Modes have existed for a very long time - the Ancient Greeks are known to have particularly developed modal music, and gave the Modes their names.

Yep. Precisely. The Dorian Scale is first and foremost a scale. 

Perhaps this is the easiest way to say it:

There are 462 heptatonic (7-note) scales that can fit inside an octave. Each scale has a unique Signature Interval Set (SIS) or fret choices up a string, from 1111116 to 6111111 and everything in between. The major scale has the SIS of 2212221. 

Some of the scales sound musical and have been given names; others (like 6111111 and 1111116) are not. 

Seven of them are particularly interesting. They are Lydian, Major (or Ionian), Mixolydian, Dorian, Natural Minor (or Aeolian), Phrygian and Locrian. 

These have the following SIS:

2221221 - Lydian
2212221 - Ionian
2212212 - Mixolydian
2122212 - Dorian
2122122 - Aeolian
1222122 - Phrygian
1221222 - Locrian

What makes these particular scales special? Apart from they’re made up totally of 2s and 1s - though there are twenty-one such possibilities - so what’s unique to these seven? It’s difficult to see if you put them in this order. The only thing you might spot if you play them is that each one has a flattened note compared to the one above, so they get ‘darker’ as you play each one. Try playing each scale on the E string, starting with open E. 

But. If you rearrange them in order of Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian, then suddenly you notice something about them. They are ‘modes’ of each other; maybe a better word would be to say they are ‘cycles’ of each other; that is to say, they cycle through the same intervals but they kick off from a different starting points. 

2212221 - Ionian

2122212 - Dorian

1222122 - Phrygian

2221221 - Lydian

2212212 - Mixolydian

2122122 - Aeolian
1221222 - Locrian

Take Lydian with a SIS of 2221221. It’s like Phrygian’s 1222122 but it kicks off from the second number in Phrygian’s SIS. It misses out the first 1, and includes it at the end instead. 

We say Lydian is the first ‘mode’ of Phrygian. 

In fact each scale is a mode of every other scale. 

And we actually call Ionian ‘Mode 1’, and all the others are referenced off that. 

But they are all scales in their own right. Each with its own SIS. 

So just as you can play a song in F# minor, you can also play a song in F# Dorian. Or F# Mixolydian. They’re just scales - that happen to be modes of each other too. 

Lestratcaster

A mode for me is a scale but starting on a different note for each one.

viz

Lestratcaster said:

A mode for me is a scale but starting on a different note for each one.

I think the problem for some is, that the business about it starting on a different note can be confusing. All scales start on note 1. That’s why we should think of Dorian as a scale first and foremost, and coincidentally as modes of other scales second - well, that’s how I have always thought / taught. 

pintspiller

I'm not sure I got as far as modes while teaching. It was usually kids who dropped out when playing guitar wasn't as easy as they thought.

To me modes were just different positions of major scale, so I likely taught them as that.

sev112

I used to think of modes as scales, but we don’t play with scales.
these days I think of them as just vibes.  

Its not my natural approach, as I would normally revert to the theory, but I’ve found that the theory has got me to a point and I don’t need to analyse more.

now it’s just “this tune sounds better if you play in a minor key but with a sharped 6th”, or that “playing along to blues goes well if use a flattened third and 7th”  etc

viz

sev112 said:

I used to think of modes as scales, but we don’t play with scales.
these days I think of them as just vibes.  

Its not my natural approach, as I would normally revert to the theory, but I’ve found that the theory has got me to a point and I don’t need to analyse more.

now it’s just “this tune sounds better if you play in a minor key but with a sharped 6th”, or that “playing along to blues goes well if use a flattened third and 7th”  etc

Yep - that’s a good point, not necessarily scales per se, but a palette of notes from which to draw. 

Danny1969

Ok, so would it be fair and more or less accurate to say a mode isn't a scale initially, as there's no notes in it but rather a sequence of intervals ...   Once applied to an actual key though this modification of the normal interval sequence produces a different flavour depending on the mode used. 

viz

Danny1969 said:

Ok, so would it be fair and more or less accurate to say a mode isn't a scale initially, as there's no notes in it but rather a sequence of intervals ...   Once applied to an actual key though this modification of the normal interval sequence produces a different flavour depending on the mode used. 

Yep, a scale is just the notes arranged in order of pitch, but most people accept it’s the easiest way of describing it, like the alphabet is the easiest way of describing a bunch of letters. 

So “the major scale” has the SIS 2212221, which is agnostic of key. 

The G major scale is G A B C D E F# G; it has the SIS 2212221, and it starts on G. 

G minor scale is G A Bb C D Eb F G and has the SIS 2122122. 

Thing is, the 2212221 concept is not normally the way of describing a scale - it’s more for just codifying it. Because the interval from one note to another is not as important or intuitive as the intervals measured from the root, and as you’ve rightly pointed out before, the most important thing about the major scale (or major key) is that it has a M2, M3, P4, P5, M6, M7 and of course an octave. 

Danny1969

Thanks @viz ;   a couple of my young students are going on to music performance at college in a couple of years and I don't want their tutors to find fault in some of my explanations.  

viz

Danny1969 said:

Thanks @viz ;   a couple of my young students are going on to music performance at college in a couple of years and I don't want their tutors to find fault in some of my explanations.  

Absolutely not!!

Lestratcaster

viz said:

Lestratcaster said:

A mode for me is a scale but starting on a different note for each one.

I think the problem for some is, that the business about it starting on a different note can be confusing. All scales start on note 1. That’s why we should think of Dorian as a scale first and foremost, and coincidentally as modes of other scales second - well, that’s how I have always thought / taught. 

Kinda yeah, I mean I understand it but it doesn't mean someone else does. I just know my major scale well enough to start on a different note and the intervals change to get each mode. 3 major 4 minors.

viz

Lestratcaster said:

viz said:

Lestratcaster said:

A mode for me is a scale but starting on a different note for each one.

I think the problem for some is, that the business about it starting on a different note can be confusing. All scales start on note 1. That’s why we should think of Dorian as a scale first and foremost, and coincidentally as modes of other scales second - well, that’s how I have always thought / taught. 

Kinda yeah, I mean I understand it but it doesn't mean someone else does. I just know my major scale well enough to start on a different note and the intervals change to get each mode. 3 major 4 minors.

Yep. 

I wonder if there might be different learners - some who hook onto the mathematical / frameworky side of things more easily, and others who prefer the more pragmatic “Dorian’s just a minor scale with a raised 6th” type approach. 

Brad

viz said:

I wonder if there might be different learners - some who hook onto the mathematical / frameworky side of things more easily, and others who prefer the more pragmatic “Dorian’s just a minor scale with a raised 6th” type approach. 

Undoubtedly this. There isn’t a one size fits all approach with learning and the ‘problem’ with modes (and music in general) is that there’s a number of ways of getting the same answer. 

I guess the most important thing is finding the ‘way in’ so to speak. For me it was the derivative approach that made everything fall into place, but then I developed some bad habits though and the parallel approach worked better for me long term. But maybe if I didn’t have that ‘way in’ perhaps I’d never have got my head around modes, or it might’ve taken a lot longer?

Lestratcaster

viz said:

Lestratcaster said:o

viz said:

Lestratcaster said:

A mode for me is a scale but starting on a different note for each one.

I think the problem for some is, that the business about it starting on a different note can be confusing. All scales start on note 1. That’s why we should think of Dorian as a scale first and foremost, and coincidentally as modes of other scales second - well, that’s how I have always thought / taught. 

Kinda yeah, I mean I understand it but it doesn't mean someone else does. I just know my major scale well enough to start on a different note and the intervals change to get each mode. 3 major 4 minors.

Yep. 

I wonder if there might be different learners - some who hook onto the mathematical / frameworky side of things more easily, and others who prefer the more pragmatic “Dorian’s just a minor scale with a raised 6th” type approach. 

There are meant to be 4 different ways to learn but I can't remember all 4, something like visual, linear and another 2. Aural maybe.

Most of mine are visual are go by ear - and usually watch me play it a few times before they understand it. Modes is theory though so its different. I try to use different methods, e.g you can view dorian as a minor pentatonic with a major 2d and 6th or the a C major scale starting on D (if you're using that as your parent key).

viz

Lestratcaster said:

viz said:

Lestratcaster said:o

viz said:

Lestratcaster said:

A mode for me is a scale but starting on a different note for each one.

I think the problem for some is, that the business about it starting on a different note can be confusing. All scales start on note 1. That’s why we should think of Dorian as a scale first and foremost, and coincidentally as modes of other scales second - well, that’s how I have always thought / taught. 

Kinda yeah, I mean I understand it but it doesn't mean someone else does. I just know my major scale well enough to start on a different note and the intervals change to get each mode. 3 major 4 minors.

Yep. 

I wonder if there might be different learners - some who hook onto the mathematical / frameworky side of things more easily, and others who prefer the more pragmatic “Dorian’s just a minor scale with a raised 6th” type approach. 

There are meant to be 4 different ways to learn but I can't remember all 4, something like visual, linear and another 2. Aural maybe.

Most of mine are visual are go by ear - and usually watch me play it a few times before they understand it. Modes is theory though so its different. I try to use different methods, e.g you can view dorian as a minor pentatonic with a major 2d and 6th or the a C major scale starting on D (if you're using that as your parent key).

Ok! 

And I’d guess 90% of people can latch on to the penta plus M2 and M6 more easily than the C major scale starting on D. Though that’s important too. 

But I could well be wrong!

Cranky

Danny1969 said:

So one of the most common questions I'm getting when explaining modes is what is the difference between a mode and a scale ? ..... and I have to be honest I'm not entirely sure myself. There's confusion I think because there's both the common major and minor scales among the modes. 

So what's the best way to answer this question in a simple but correct way ? 

Such a hard question.  I think the answer is "both", but only one at a time and depending on the learner.

As already mentioned, "major" and "minor" scales are also modes.  So in that sense, they're all modes and there's no need to discuss "scales" at all.

But it's also possible to say that there's only one scale -- the Major Scale -- and that the others are all just different modes of that scale.  Like, the same scale but with different start/end points.  Same scale, different position.  So in that sense, perhaps the answer is to discontinue referring to a minor scale and only say minor mode.  And subsequently, we can say that, just as every major has it's relative minor, we can also explain more easily that every major has a relative dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian and locrian.

GuyBoden

I had difficulty recognising each mode separately by ear, I think this is due to many years of just hearing/thinking in Major and minor keys.