Music Theory and Culture

Cranky

So here's a little bit of musicology that's already proven to be too hot for TGP.  What does this look like from your side of the pond?  Does Mr. Neely have a point?  Is this a good "music theory" conversation starter, or will someone request that it be moved to the Off Topic section?

DrCornelius

Sorry bud but you haven’t embedded a video , just a picture. I think this happens when you embed a video then edit the post ?

Cranky

DrCornelius said:

Sorry bud but you haven’t embedded a video , just a picture. I think this happens when you embed a video then edit the post ?

Thanks, fixed.

Brad

That was a good watch. I’m with Neely, it ties in with my experiences of music education anyway

Roland

I got about three minutes in, watching him define and then redefine “music theory” into a small corner consisting of white, German, 18th century music. At this point he lost credibility with me.

18th century Europe might have seen some developments in music theory, as it did in physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics etc. However it does not represent the whole of music theory, for example it excludes Indian scales and ornamentations, and it excludes 19th and 20th century French ideas. 18th century European culture has had a significant impact on musical thinking, but so have contemporaneous ideas in other fields.

He then spends time explaining why concepts from white, German, 18th century music theory eg figured bass, aren’t relevant to much of today’s music. I don’t think anyone is going to disagree. We’ve also discarded the phlogiston theory of chemistry.

Where I can agree with him is that confining musical examples to white, German, 18th century composers is restricting. I can also agree about the fallacy of trying to define what is or isn’t music based on one’s own definition of music, with both its personal and cultural preconceptions.

What is worth discussing is the impact of music on society. There was an impact on concert hall design, enabling larger audiences in the era before amplification. The audiences which had the time and money to attend such events brought their own social views and attitudes. Don’t forget that the Promenade concerts were set up to bring music to the wider public, and to break some of those attitudes.

octatonic

Roland said:

I got about three minutes in, watching him define and then redefine “music theory” into a small corner consisting of white, German, 18th century music. At this point he lost credibility with me.

Watch all of it.

Cranky

Roland said:

I got about three minutes in, watching him define and then redefine “music theory” into a small corner consisting of white, German, 18th century music. At this point he lost credibility with me.

18th century Europe might have seen some developments in music theory, as it did in physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics etc. However it does not represent the whole of music theory, for example it excludes Indian scales and ornamentations, and it excludes 19th and 20th century French ideas. 18th century European culture has had a significant impact on musical thinking, but so have contemporaneous ideas in other fields.

He then spends time explaining why concepts from white, German, 18th century music theory eg figured bass, aren’t relevant to much of today’s music. I don’t think anyone is going to disagree. We’ve also discarded the phlogiston theory of chemistry.

Where I can agree with him is that confining musical examples to white, German, 18th century composers is restricting. I can also agree about the fallacy of trying to define what is or isn’t music based on one’s own definition of music, with both its personal and cultural preconceptions.

What is worth discussing is the impact of music on society. There was an impact on concert hall design, enabling larger audiences in the era before amplification. The audiences which had the time and money to attend such events brought their own social views and attitudes. Don’t forget that the Promenade concerts were set up to bring music to the wider public, and to break some of those attitudes.

Yeah, what @octatonic said. You're response here is basically what Neely says . . . but with some interesting history along the way

Roland

I did watch it all, as my later comments show, but he blew his credibility with the early statements.

viz

I didn’t have time to finish it and will try to later, but I’m just not really sure what the issue is. I mean, the factual information he says is right, as far as my limited knowledge extends, but I can’t quite grasp what point he’s making and to whom. I don’t really recognise what he’s claiming western music theory - or more accurately, people who use it - are trying and failing to do. I think it’s quite a flexible language. 

ArchtopDave

I agree with @Roland. The definition of Music Theory in this video is woefully inaccurate. Music Theory and Notation existed long before the 18th Century, and has evolved since. If you accept his very limited definition, then some of his arguments are relevant. It's unfair to blame Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven for their sex, date of birth, and place of birth - things which neither they, or indeed we ourselves, have control over. I am not aware of them promoting racism in music.

He also, along the way, chucks in a number of inaccurate statements, such as the Beatles not knowing any Music Theory which is untrue. They certainly quite early on appreciated Intervals, and bothered to go and chat to Mr.Gritty, about the"Gritty Chord" they liked, which was a Ninth. He also flashes up a copy of a substantial book that I own - Tonal Harmony. It runs to 668 pages, of which the last 100 plus pages are devoted to 20th Century music concepts. Its' content is far from being limited to a portion of the 18th Century.

If you have a degree of interest in Music Theory, then you'll likely to be aware, despite his comments to contrary, that other systems of Music Theory exist in the world at large. Even those who profess to know no Theory may be aware that a basic 12 Bar Blues sequence of Seventh Chords does not fit with classic western Music Theory.

Personally, I also do not accept the argument that Music Theory on its' own is racist. The problem is actually with the people, who themselves are racist, using it promote their own racially orientated ideas.
This is no different from the Church in olden days seeing the Flat 5 Interval as the work of the devil, and, that anyone using it, should be severely punished. It's the same problem with Sexism in music, as in other areas of life, it's the attitudes of people that are the problem.

(P.S. I did take the trouble to listen to the whole video, and did note there was a tentative admission toward the end of the video, that Music Theory itself wasn't racist!)

GuyBoden

"One Scale to rule them all, One Scale to find them, One Scale to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. In the Land of Music where the Shadows lie."  The unbalanced dominance of the Major scale adapted from J.R.R Tolkien

Grunfeld

15:51  "The pentatonic scale... [doesn't] have to be performed at certain times of the day."

Well, I'm not so sure about that... 

WiresDreamDisasters

If you stare into the void long enough, you'll convince yourself that you're not a fucking idiot.

Cranky

Fjdjfgkdkfk

octatonic

Cranky said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

If you stare into the void long enough, you'll convince yourself that you're not a fucking idiot.

You're going to end up just like him if you don't get some help.  

No need for this, frankly.
Families should be off limit no matter how much you dislike a person.

Cranky

octatonic said:

Cranky said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

If you stare into the void long enough, you'll convince yourself that you're not a fucking idiot.

You're going to end up just like him if you don't get some help. 

No need for this, frankly.
Families should be off limit no matter how much you dislike a person.

Fair enough.  I've deleted the relevant part.  It was in earnest, either way.  This guy needs help.

viz

You can also edit your post in the quote above if you like. 

Back on topic: can we discuss the points being made? I still don’t really understand the video. I’ve now watched it to the end, and I just don’t really understand what ‘side’ he’s on, if any, or even if there are any sides. I’m not being difficult, maybe a little thick, which is normal.

monquixote

viz said:

You can also edit your post in the quote above if you like. 

Back on topic: can we discuss the points being made? I still don’t really understand the video. I’ve now watched it to the end, and I just don’t really understand what ‘side’ he’s on, if any, or even if there are any sides. I’m not being difficult, maybe a little thick, which is normal.

He's making a point primarily about the American music education system which focuses on a certain style of musical analysis meaning all music tends to be seen through that lens. 

This results in music which isn't based on these concepts being seen as inferior and highlights that this was a deliberate intention of the creator of this tool.

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

viz

monquixote said:

viz said:

You can also edit your post in the quote above if you like. 

Back on topic: can we discuss the points being made? I still don’t really understand the video. I’ve now watched it to the end, and I just don’t really understand what ‘side’ he’s on, if any, or even if there are any sides. I’m not being difficult, maybe a little thick, which is normal.

He's making a point primarily about the American music education system which focuses on a certain style of musical analysis meaning all music tends to be seen through that lens. 

This results in music which isn't based on these concepts being seen as inferior and highlights that this was a deliberate intention of the creator of this tool.

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

That is excellent. Thank you old bean. 

Cranky

monquixote said:

viz said:

You can also edit your post in the quote above if you like. 

Back on topic: can we discuss the points being made? I still don’t really understand the video. I’ve now watched it to the end, and I just don’t really understand what ‘side’ he’s on, if any, or even if there are any sides. I’m not being difficult, maybe a little thick, which is normal.

He's making a point primarily about the American music education system which focuses on a certain style of musical analysis meaning all music tends to be seen through that lens. 

This results in music which isn't based on these concepts being seen as inferior and highlights that this was a deliberate intention of the creator of this tool.

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

 Yeah, and what I thought was interesting was one of the YT comments from someone who claimed to be German and said that Germany's academic music theory was more like what the music professor was clamoring for and had long ago moved on from the "superior culture" approach to music.

WiresDreamDisasters

monquixote said:

He certainly isn't saying music theory is racist only that analysis which has an implicit assumption that classical music is the pinnacle of culture devalues other forms which aren't based on the same concepts.

So just clickbait then, basically? Because this viewpoint has been well understood in music for a long time. There is snobbery throughout the entire music world. Classical musicians look down on electronic musicians and popular music. Jazz musicians look down on classical musicians because they're not breaking new ground. Rockers look down on jazz musicians because they don't use enough distortion, etc etc.

The original video (which I did watch fully) brings nothing new to the table or the discussion about music pedagogy. He's just riding coat-tails basically.