Zoom H5 recorder and Yamaha mixing desk MG12XU 12

ijonty

Hi all, I'm trying to record at home using these a Zoom H5 recorder and Yamaha mixing desk MG12XU 12.

At the moment, vocals go into the desk and I use a phono jack out of the desk and into L1 of the Zoom. Bass comes from a DI on the back of the amp into R1 of the Zoom. 

I've got two questions:

1. Even though the vocal sounds good out of the main speakers, it sounds like it peaks in the Zoom recorder, even when the read-out on the screen is only at -12. Any ideas why?

2. I'd like to feed a guitar or maybe two into the mixing desk, so is there a way of separating those instruments out into the Zoom (I've got an EXH-6 Dual XLR/TRS Input Capsule so I can have more inputs in the Zoom). Would I pan vocals to the left and guitar to the right - not sure how to do that? Particularly if I don't want the sound panned out of the main speakers too.

Any help really appreciated!

Photo of desk set up:

And don't know if this is relevant, but this is the interface set-up for getting the desk into Reaper (I'm pretty sure this isn't how I should be doing it):

octatonic

Are you going from the desk into the Zoom device at Mic level, rather than Line level?

I don't know the devices you are using that well but often, if mic/line is not selectable, then the selection will be made based on what connector you use on a combi input.
If you use an XLR then it will use Mic level, if you use a TRS connector then it will go in at Line level.
I don't know if those devices work that way though.

ijonty

octatonic said:

Are you going from there desk into the Zoom device at Mic level, rather than Line level?

Good point, thanks. It seems I've got a pad setting for the inputs. Does that mean I turn on the pad for the connection going from desk to Zoom? Is that the setting you mean?

Apologies for the terrible images below - don't have it with me so screengrabbed off YouTube:

octatonic

LOL- I do actually have a H5.

You should be going out of the desk into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combiner's connector, not the XLR connector.
The H5 auto senses which connector type you're using and changes the gain to suit.
Microphones are connected via XLR, Mixers and keyboards with TRS for line level operation.
If your mixer isn't operating at +4dB then you may need the pad.
If your mixer is outputting at +4dB then you shouldn't need the pad.

Page 8 of the manual says this:

Connecting instruments and other devices

Connect keyboards and mixers directly to the Input 1/2TRS jacks.
Direct input of passive guitars and basses is not supported. Connect these instruments through a mixer or effects device.

Turn the PAD function ON when connecting a mixer or other device with a standard output level of +4dB.

steamabacus

ijonty said:

2. I'd like to feed a guitar or maybe two into the mixing desk, so is there a way of separating those instruments out into the Zoom (I've got an EXH-6 Dual XLR/TRS Input Capsule so I can have more inputs in the Zoom). Would I pan vocals to the left and guitar to the right - not sure how to do that? Particularly if I don't want the sound panned out of the main speakers too.

Any help really appreciated!

I don't see any way of separating out multiple inputs without hard panning which, as you say, will be panned at the main monitors. If the Komplete Audio 6 has a sum-to-mono switch for its output (can't see what the second button is from the pic) you could monitor from that in mono.

Looking at your desk, it looks like you could get 5 independent outputs -

2 channels panned hard L and R routed to the STEREO OUT 1&2 (ST button beside the faders)

2 channels panned hard L and R routed to the GROUP OUT 1&2 (1-2 buttons beside the faders)

1 channel, fader at zero, routed via AUX1 set to PRE-fade (level controlled by the Aux1 level knob) routed to the AUX1 SEND OUT

ijonty

octatonic said:

LOL- I do actually have a H5.

into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combiner's connector,

Sorry, I'm not too hot on terminology - what do you mean by this?

ijonty

ijonty said:

octatonic said:

LOL- I do actually have a H5.

into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combiner's connector,

Sorry, I'm not too hot on terminology - what do you mean by this?

Actually, I think you mean there's a small jack input on the room mic bit at the top?

ijonty

steamabacus said:

Looking at your desk, it looks like you could get 5 independent outputs -

2 channels panned hard L and R routed to the STEREO OUT 1&2 (ST button beside the faders)

2 channels panned hard L and R routed to the GROUP OUT 1&2 (1-2 buttons beside the faders)

1 channel, fader at zero, routed via AUX1 set to PRE-fade (level controlled by the Aux1 level knob) routed to the AUX1 SEND OUT

The Komplete doesn't have a sum-to-mono I don't think.

In terms of the outputs, do you just mean that I can send the audio plenty of places, but it'll always be a single mix of the various inputs?

steamabacus

ijonty said:

steamabacus said:

Looking at your desk, it looks like you could get 5 independent outputs -

2 channels panned hard L and R routed to the STEREO OUT 1&2 (ST button beside the faders)

2 channels panned hard L and R routed to the GROUP OUT 1&2 (1-2 buttons beside the faders)

1 channel, fader at zero, routed via AUX1 set to PRE-fade (level controlled by the Aux1 level knob) routed to the AUX1 SEND OUT

The Komplete doesn't have a sum-to-mono I don't think.

In terms of the outputs, do you just mean that I can send the audio plenty of places, but it'll always be a single mix of the various inputs?

No, not a mix of the inputs, you would have up to five channels going to a separate output.

eg.

CH1 > STEREO OUT L

CH2 > STEREO OUT R

CH3 > GROUP OUT L

CH4 > GROUP OUT R

CH5 > AUX1 SEND

The first four channels would have full eq, comp, fx, etc

The fifth, by nature of being routed from PRE-FADER would just be whatever signal was present at that channel input affected only by the channel AUX1 level and the AUX1 SEND MASTER level.

You would monitor from the Komplete output.

[edit] I've just had a look at the Komplete and I see that it can either output inputs 1&2 OR 3&4 so that would not work. You could monitor from the zoom recorder stereo outputs but that would be hard panned L-R unless you sum to mono.

What exactly do you want to record in separately? I think there may be a way a way of setting up desk and Komplete/Zoom to record three separate channels and monitor in mono.

I'm not entirely sure at the moment where the Zoom recorder is in your setup. I was thinking the Komplete was connected to the Zoom but I see now that it isn't (the Komplete is connected to your computer yes?). I'll try and have a look at the Zoom and see exactly what unputs and outputs it has.

octatonic

ijonty said:

ijonty said:

octatonic said:

LOL- I do actually have a H5.

into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combiner's connector,

Sorry, I'm not too hot on terminology - what do you mean by this?

Actually, I think you mean there's a small jack input on the room mic bit at the top?

There is but that isn't what I mean.
The line in will be unbalanced I think, as it is a minijack for two channels.
Not 100% sure, I've never used it.

octatonic

ijonty said:

octatonic said:

LOL- I do actually have a H5.

into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combiner's connector,

Sorry, I'm not too hot on terminology - what do you mean by this?

Predictive text fucked me again.
What I meant was "into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combi connector,"



This is a Combi connector.
It takes an XLR (mic) OR a TRS plug.

This is an XLR plug:



This is a TRS plug.


When using the H5 from your mixer you should use the TRS plug.
If you use an XLR then it will operate at Mic level.
If, when using the TRS plug to connect your mixer to the H5, the signal is still too hot then use the pad.

steamabacus

ijonty said:

steamabacus said:

Looking at your desk, it looks like you could get 5 independent outputs -

2 channels panned hard L and R routed to the STEREO OUT 1&2 (ST button beside the faders)

2 channels panned hard L and R routed to the GROUP OUT 1&2 (1-2 buttons beside the faders)

1 channel, fader at zero, routed via AUX1 set to PRE-fade (level controlled by the Aux1 level knob) routed to the AUX1 SEND OUT

The Komplete doesn't have a sum-to-mono I don't think.

In terms of the outputs, do you just mean that I can send the audio plenty of places, but it'll always be a single mix of the various inputs?

I'm looking at a pic of the Komplete and it has a MONO button directly below the monitor output volume knob. That should sum the output to dual mono out of the phones out and out of the main 1-2 OUT on the back.

ijonty

steamabacus said:

I'm looking at a pic of the Komplete and it has a MONO button directly below the monitor output volume knob. That should sum the output to dual mono out of the phones out and out of the main 1-2 OUT on the back.

Ah thanks, I wasn't sure what it meant. So if that's pressed, then it will all be turned into mono regardless of the panning on the desk?

ijonty

octatonic said:

ijonty said:

octatonic said:

LOL- I do actually have a H5.

into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combiner's connector,

Sorry, I'm not too hot on terminology - what do you mean by this?

Predictive text fucked me again.
What I meant was "into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combi connector,"

Ok thanks, and for being patient with such beginner questions. So it sounds like I'm already doing what I'm supposed to, connecting the desk to input 1 with a TRS plug. It's not running hot on the screen (I can set it with the dial around -12db with plenty of headroom), but anything plosive during vocals for example sounds distorted. Am I missing something else? Presumably if it's not peaking on the Zoom display screen, I don't need the pad?

steamabacus

Yes, the hard panned channels from the desk into the Komplete will summed to mono on the Komplete outputs.

I've not had much on this afternoon and have been wrapping my head around this, looking at your various devices. I believe there's a way to have your desk set up to record up to three separated channels into the Zoom (plus a fourth directly into the Zoom) or two channels into the Komplete/computer. Both the Zoom and the Komplete would output back into the desk and then you'd monitor via the desk's MONITOR OUT (or headpnone out) - I'm assuming you have some form of powered monitors? When recording to the Zoom, you would have to balance your monitor levels (of the 4 tracks) via the Zoom's Input Signal Monitor Mix function (manual p82).

Does this sound like sufficient for what you're after? I can try and guide you through how I would connect everything up (I look at it all as plumbing to get my head round it).

octatonic

ijonty said:

octatonic said:

ijonty said:

octatonic said:

LOL- I do actually have a H5.

into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combiner's connector,

Sorry, I'm not too hot on terminology - what do you mean by this?

Predictive text fucked me again.
What I meant was "into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combi connector,"

Ok thanks, and for being patient with such beginner questions. So it sounds like I'm already doing what I'm supposed to, connecting the desk to input 1 with a TRS plug. It's not running hot on the screen (I can set it with the dial around -12db with plenty of headroom), but anything plosive during vocals for example sounds distorted. Am I missing something else? Presumably if it's not peaking on the Zoom display screen, I don't need the pad?

Correct.

If it is still distorting then it isn't the Zoom that is overloading, it is happening at another stage, maybe at the preamp in the mixer?
How hot is that running?

steamabacus

octatonic said:

ijonty said:

octatonic said:

ijonty said:

octatonic said:

LOL- I do actually have a H5.

into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combiner's connector,

Sorry, I'm not too hot on terminology - what do you mean by this?

Predictive text fucked me again.
What I meant was "into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combi connector,"

Ok thanks, and for being patient with such beginner questions. So it sounds like I'm already doing what I'm supposed to, connecting the desk to input 1 with a TRS plug. It's not running hot on the screen (I can set it with the dial around -12db with plenty of headroom), but anything plosive during vocals for example sounds distorted. Am I missing something else? Presumably if it's not peaking on the Zoom display screen, I don't need the pad?

Correct.

If it is still distorting then it isn't the Zoom that is overloading, it is happening at another stage, maybe at the preamp in the mixer?
How hot is that running?

@ijonty

In case you're unaware, that's what the PFL button next to each fader is for - press that in and the input levels will be displayed on the main LED meter (and the orange 'PFL' LED will light up undernearth). Use the channel GAIN pot (and the 26dB PAD button above if necessary) to set your levels without clipping.

ijonty

steamabacus said:

octatonic said:

ijonty said:

octatonic said:

ijonty said:

octatonic said:

LOL- I do actually have a H5.

into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combiner's connector,

Sorry, I'm not too hot on terminology - what do you mean by this?

Predictive text fucked me again.
What I meant was "into the Line input which is the TRS input of the combi connector,"

Ok thanks, and for being patient with such beginner questions. So it sounds like I'm already doing what I'm supposed to, connecting the desk to input 1 with a TRS plug. It's not running hot on the screen (I can set it with the dial around -12db with plenty of headroom), but anything plosive during vocals for example sounds distorted. Am I missing something else? Presumably if it's not peaking on the Zoom display screen, I don't need the pad?

Correct.

If it is still distorting then it isn't the Zoom that is overloading, it is happening at another stage, maybe at the preamp in the mixer?
How hot is that running?

@ijonty

In case you're unaware, that's what the PFL button next to each fader is for - press that in and the input levels will be displayed on the main LED meter (and the orange 'PFL' LED will light up undernearth). Use the channel GAIN pot (and the 26dB PAD button above if necessary) to set your levels without clipping.

Yes, I watched a few videos about set up, and set the levels using PFL and the gain as suggested above so I don't think it's that. The sound coming out of the main speakers is absolutely fine. It's just in the Zoom that I hear the occasional distortion.

steamabacus

Dodgy cable?

ijonty

steamabacus said:

Yes, the hard panned channels from the desk into the Komplete will summed to mono on the Komplete outputs.

I've not had much on this afternoon and have been wrapping my head around this, looking at your various devices. I believe there's a way to have your desk set up to record up to three separated channels into the Zoom (plus a fourth directly into the Zoom) or two channels into the Komplete/computer. Both the Zoom and the Komplete would output back into the desk and then you'd monitor via the desk's MONITOR OUT (or headpnone out) - I'm assuming you have some form of powered monitors? When recording to the Zoom, you would have to balance your monitor levels (of the 4 tracks) via the Zoom's Input Signal Monitor Mix function (manual p82).

Does this sound like sufficient for what you're after? I can try and guide you through how I would connect everything up (I look at it all as plumbing to get my head round it).

I'd love your help with this if you have time. As I say, I'm pretty sure my set up is far from ideal, so guiding me through it would be very welcome. Perhaps there are few things I should add that may help:

The mixer currently goes from the main out on the desk into the front two inputs on the Komplete via XLR. Then two sets of powered monitors come out of the Komplete.

We use Reaper to play a pre-recorded drum track and other instrumentation that we can't reproduce in the room (drummer AWOL).

We don't currently record anything in Reaper when playing live.

We don't use the USB connection from desk to Mac currently either - should we?

The desk is new to me, and although I've had the Zoom a while, I've just basically turned it on an used it with default settings.

What would you suggest as the best set up?

Cheers!

steamabacus

Ok, I think I have a more flexible setup than that. Give me a bit of time to organise my thoughts so I can lay it out clearly (and finish cooking dinner).