Zoom H5 recorder and Yamaha mixing desk MG12XU 12

steamabacus

A couple of questions while the chilli's cooking.

How many tracks are you recording over the Reaper backing? Vocal, guitar and bass? Reaper backing in mono on the fourth track?

The Komplete has alternate outputs 3 & 4 - can you choose/switch between outputs 1&2 OR 3&4 in your playback software?

I'm old school so I'd avoid connecting the desk to the computer via usb as that opens up all manner of potential 'computer compatibility' issues which I'm too old for.

ijonty

steamabacus said:

A couple of questions while the chilli's cooking.

Hope it's a good'un

How many tracks are you recording over the Reaper backing? Vocal, guitar and bass? Reaper backing in mono on the fourth track?

Ideally I want to record vocals, bass and at least one guitar, maybe two when we find another guitarist. (I suppose potentially an electric drum kit too, though that's definitely not necessary at the moment.)

I'm not recording the Reaper backing track at all. Once I have all the other stuff recorded separately, I put it all together again the following day.

The Komplete has alternate outputs 3 & 4 - can you choose/switch between outputs 1&2 OR 3&4 in your playback software?

The entire set up is at my bassist's house, so I'd have to go from memory on this one. What do you mean by playback software? Reaper?

I'm old school so I'd avoid connecting the desk to the computer via usb as that opens up all manner of potential 'computer compatibility' issues which I'm too old for.

Ha, fair enough, I'm no spring chicken myself!

steamabacus

ijonty said:

Ideally I want to record vocals, bass and at least one guitar, maybe two when we find another guitarist. (I suppose potentially an electric drum kit too, though that's definitely not necessary at the moment.)

I'm not recording the Reaper backing track at all. Once I have all the other stuff recorded separately, I put it all together again the following day.

Right, not recording the Reaper backing actually makes things simpler. For re-synchronising once you import the recorded guitar and vocal tracks back into Reaper I'd suggest making sure that your Reaper backing track starts with an eight-count click. If whoever in the band has the best timing 'clicks' the last four on their instrument (or even a 'one, two, three, four' into the mic) it might make the process of re-sync'ing to the backing a bit quicker.

You can set up to record four tracks onto the Zoom but one will have to not go through the desk but straight into the Zoom (a pre-amp or multi-fx of some kind would do the job for guitar or bass if the Zoom's input can't be configured for high impedence 'instrument' level).

So this is how I would set it up, old-school with the mixing desk as the 'control centre' and everything else going into and out of the desk. Deep breath .....

So I'll start with the powered monitors. I'd plug these into the MONITOR OUT sockets on the desk. These are TRS ('stereo') sockets, so if your monitors accept TRS, a TRS cable will reject more noise. Otherwise, normal mono guitar cable will work fine.

The monitor output level is controlled by the MONITOR LEVEL knob directly below the VU meter. Once you are set up this will probably stay put as you use the desk faders to control levels. In normal usage the SOURCE button below the monitor level and phones knobs will be set to GROUP 1-2.

The GROUP 1-2 bus (ie 'pathway') will be used to feed the monitor out - the GROUP 1-2 fader will be used to set the monitor playback volume (once the monitor level knob mentioned above is set). In normal usage the red 'ST' button on this fader should be left off.

So now we have the monitors connected and anything routed through the GROUP 1-2 bus will play back through them with the level set by the GROUP 1-2 fader (and also MONITOR LEVEL knob). Any mixer channel can be routed to the monitors by pushing the '1-2' button on each channel.

The STEREO bus (controlled by the main red fader) will be used to output to both the Komplete interface into the computer and the Zoom 4-channel recorder. You will be able to record to either (2 tracks to the Komplete, 3 to the Zoom from the desk).

[cup of tea]

Next, we'll connect the Komplete interface in to and out of the desk.

Connect the main STEREO OUT XLR outputs (top right of the desk) to the Komplete inputs 1 & 2 with XLR cables. Set the Komplete input channels toLINE (button out) and balance the levels with the GAIN knobs. Once the levels have been balanced with the desk's output levels these should pretty much remain set - once again, everything can be controlled from the STEREO fader on the desk.

Connect the MAIN 1/2 outputs on the back of the Komplete to CHANNEL 11/12 via the two LINE level jack inputs at the top of the 11/12 channel strip. These are unbalanced inputs so normal mono guitar cable is ok. Balance the output level from the Komplete using its monitor volume knob on the front. Use the PFL button on desk channel 11/12 to monitor the input level to make sure it isn't clipping the input.

Once everything is balanced, you can control the level from the Komplete using the CHANNEL 11/12 fader. In normal usage you will want to have the '1-2' button next to the fader ON (and 'ST' off) - this will route that channel to the GROUP 1-2 bus and from there out to the monitors.

[gulp of tea and new post to make sure it all fits in]

steamabacus

Next, we'll connect the Zoom H5 recorder, again both in to and out of the desk. I'll start with the Zoom output before detailing how to get the three separate inputs from the desk plus one direct into the Zoom.

Connect the LINE OUT from the Zoom to CHANNEL 9/10 of the desk. You have two choices - you will need a stereo mini-jack cable to either two mono 1/4" plugs (into the two LINE level jacks at the top of the 9/10 channel strip) or alternatively to two RCA ('hifi') plugs (into the two RCA sockets just below). Either will work fine - minijack to twin RCA is maybe more commonly to hand.

As above, you will need to balance the output level from the Zoom with the input level of the desk channel - again, use the PFL button next to the fader and the VU meters to balance the levels.

Once everything is balanced, you can control the level from the Zoom using the CHANNEL 9/10 fader. In normal usage you will want to have the '1-2' button next to the fader ON (and 'ST' off) - this will route that channel to the GROUP 1-2 bus and from there out to the monitors. (Sound familiar - just like the Komplete on channel 11/12).

[gulp of tea]

This leaves us with channels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5/6 and 7/8 available as input channels. Any of these can be routed to either the Komplete inputs or inputs 1-3 of the Zoom as follows ...

Connect the STEREO OUT jack outputs (below the two XLR outputs now connected to the Komplete) to inputs 1 & 2 on the Zoom H5. These are balanced outputs and the Zoom accepts balanced inputs so 'stereo' TRS cable can be used to help reject noise (but standard mono guitar cable will work fine). Exactly like the XLR outs, these jack outputs are governed by the main red STEREO fader on the right hand side of the desk.

Any channel can be routed to the STEREO bus by pressing the 'ST' button beside the relevant channel's fader. Panning hard LEFT will route the signal to INPUT 1 on the Zoom, panning hard RIGHT will route the signal to INPUT 2 on the Zoom (panning anywhere in between will send to both Zoom inputs, stereo balance determined by the pan pot).

A third discrete output can be routed to the Zoom as follows ...

Connect the AUX1 SEND output from the desk to INPUT 3 on the Zoom (these are both balanced connections so, again, TRS cable can be used for lower noise ... or not). The output level from the AUX1 SEND jack is governed by both the AUX1 SEND MASTER knob (just below the desk's effects section) and also each channel's individual AUX1 knob.

Once levels are balance up, the AUX1 SEND MASTER will probably remain set and the output level will be set by the individual channel AUX1 knob.

Any channel can be routed to Zoom INPUT 3 as follows ...

Keep the channel fader set to ZERO (the signal is being sent to neither the STEREO bus nor the GROUP 1-2 bus). Press the PRE button below the channel AUX1 knob to 'on' - this  means the AUX1 knob is taking a signal from BEFORE the fader therefore a signal will be present.

The level sent to Zoom channel 3 can now be controlled by the AUX1 knob independent of anything else. According to pages 20 and 21 of the Yamaha MG12XU manual, you will still be able to use the channel compression and eq controls on this feed (but not the effects section).

So that gives you...

Any channel routed to STEREO bus panned LEFT will be sent to Zoom input 1

Any channel routed to STEREO bus panned RIGHT will be sent to Zoom input 2

Any channel (fader zero) AUX1 send set to PRE will be sent to Zoom input 3

The fourth recorded track will have to be connected to Zoom input 4 directly.

That just leaves how you'd set up monitoring levels while recording on the Zoom which I'll explain in another post.

[when I've made another cup of tea]

steamabacus

[final stretch]....

So you've got your four independent tracks going into the Zoom H5. How do you monitor them?

The Zoom's stereo line out comes in on channel 9/10 on the desk. So, route channel 9/10 to the GROUP 1-2 bus (the '1-2' button on, the 'ST' button off next to channel 9/10 fader). Now you can monitor the output from the Zoom, controlled by the CHANNEL 9/10 FADER into the GROUP 1-2 FADER ('ST' button off) into the MONITOR LEVEL pot, out through the MONITOR OUT sockets and down the cabel into your powered monitors.

The actual monitor mix between the four recording channels will have to be done inside the Zoom H5. Luckily, it seems to be pretty well equipped to do this. Page 82 of the Zoom H5 manual - 'Adjusting the input signal monitoring mix' - shows how to set the level and panning for each input signal.

So how do you monitor the backing track from Reaper?

The Komplete stereo output comes in on channel 11/12 of the desk. Route channel 11/12 to the GROUP 1-2 bus exactly as for the Zoom on channel 9/10 above. You can now balance the output levels of the (internally mixed) Zoom and the Komplete using the channel 9/10 and channel 11/12 faders.

Hopefully there are no typos or brain farts in the above - I think it should all work correctly.

Things to be aware of ...

Set up like this you can actual record both TO and FROM both the Zoom and the Komplete/computer. The STEREO bus is your RECORD OUT bus and the GROUP 1-2 bus is your MONITOR OUT bus.

So set the Zoom on channel 9/10 to 'ST' and the Komplete on channel 11/12 to '1-2' to record from the Zoom to the Komplete.

Set the Zoom on channel 9/10 to '1-2' and the Komplete on channel 11/12 to 'ST' to record from the Komplete to the Zoom.

The input on the Komplete needs to be disbled (eg in Reaper) during playback or else you will get a feedback loop and howl around. Hopefully the inputs are disabled by default (just don't press record!) If all else fails, turn the input gains to zero on the Komplete.

Some thoughts ...

You mentioned the possibility of an electronic drum kit in the future. It might be possible to record the drums direct to reaper while recording the other 4 instruments to the Zoom by utilising the Komplete's 3/4 INPUTS? I'm thinking if you could plug the drums direct into 3/4, record into Reaper and then output Reaper (drums + backing) from Komplete OUTPUTS MAIN 1/2  into the desk and out to the monitors. Can it be set up like that? Will there be latency issues? I'm a bit too old-school to know for sure but it's worth somebody good with computers looking into it.

ijonty

steamabacus said:

This looks fantastic! Really appreciate it. I'll read through everything today and see if I can get my head round it before heading over to the studio. Thanks so much for this - it's EXACTLY what I need. Will report back...

ijonty

steamabacus said:

I’ve read through everything now and it sounds great. The instructions, I mean. Very clear. Any problems with set-up will be down to my ignorance.

I’m starting by checking I’ve got the right number of the right cables. This is my understanding based on your process:

• Two TRS cables or guitar cables to connect the desk to the main monitor speakers

• Two XLR cables to connect the desk to the Komplete

• Two guitar cables to connect the Komplete to the desk

• A stereo mini-jack cable to either two mono 1/4" plugs OR to two RCA ('hifi') plugs from the Zoom to the desk

• Two TRS cables or guitar cables to connect the desk to the Zoom inputs 1+2

• A TRS cable or guitar cable from the desk to the Zoom input 3

Is that correct?

steamabacus

Yes, that looks about right - always good to have a couple of spares though. What's that old quote? "There's nothing certain in life except death and taxes" - I think you can add a dodgy cable just when you most need it to that list.

I didn't mention the FX setion in the above set-up. Obviously, the individual channel's AUX2 FX knobs control the send to the effects section and the FX RTN fader controls the return to either the STEREO or GROUP 1-2 bus but, looking at a photo of the desk, I noticed something else that (I think) contradicts something I said above.

I would check this with the manual but I believe the AUX1 PRE knob at the top of the FX RTN channel strip will feed the effects return into the AUX1 SEND which goes to input 3 on the Zoom. Assuming this is true, you CAN have effects on the AUX1 PRE SEND.

Also note that the FX RTN channel does not have a pan pot. If you were to route the effects to the STEREO record bus, any stereo effects would be on both the left and right outputs and thus on both track 1 and 2 of the Zoom recorder - not exactly ideal unless you're recording a single stereo track onto Zoom tracks 1&2.

However, I see a much more useful way of using the FX RTN. If you switch it to '1-2' (not 'ST') the effects will be routed to the GROUP 1-2 bus (monitor out) but NOT the STEREO bus (record out). This would allow, for example, the vocalist to have a bit of reverb or delay on the vocals (in the monitors) to help when tracking but to record the vocals DRY onto the Zoom. The best of both worlds.

steamabacus

Oh, another thing .... I was thinking about your recording method and having to re-synchronise the four Zoom-recorded tracks with the backing when imported back into Reaper. I thought of a trick that I think will make the process MUCH easier.

As mentioned before, put an eight-count click at the beginning of your Reaper backing track.

The Reaper playback from the Komplete comes in on channel 11/12 routed to the monitors by the '1-2' button.

Before you start recording, press the 'ST' button on CHANNEL 11/12 as well as the '1-2' button - this will route the Reaper playback to both the monitors and Zoom record tracks 1&2.

Press record, press playback on Reaper and record the first four clicks then press the 'ST' button on CHANNEL 11/12 back to 'off' during the second four clicks of the eight-count click intro (the second four clicks will still be heard through the monitors as the backing is still routed to the GROUP 1-2 monitor bus).

Record your parts along to the Reaper backing.

This will record the first four intro clicks on the backing track onto Zoom tracks 1&2, then a bit of silence (for the duration of the second four clicks) and then whatever instruments you've routed to tracks 1&2.

When you re-import to Reaper, align the four clicks recorded on tracks 1&2 with the first four clicks on the Reaper tracks. This should ensure that all the tracks recorded on the Zoom are perfectly aligned with the original backing track they were recorded over.

ijonty

Great, I’m heading over there tomorrow to have a look at everything. We actually have two sets of monitors - does the set up you describe have scope for those? 

steamabacus

Haha - well, I suppose you could connect them to the PHONES output. This is fed from the GROUP 1-2 bus (like the MONITOR OUT) as is controlled by the PHONES knob below the MONITOR LEVEL knob (just below the main VU meters).

Assuming this works as expected, you could then choose which set of monitors to use by turning up either the MONITOR LEVEL knob or the PHONES knob (or even both!). There may be some reduction of quality from feeding the second set of monitors from a headphone output (impedences, etc) but I don't think it will make too much difference.

There is a second option - you could connect the second set of monitors directly to the GROUP OUT sockets (assuming this doesn't break the feed to the MONITOR section (MONITOR LEVEL/PHONES/SOURCE) - I don't think it will). This is probably a better impedence match but there is no way to mute or turn down this output other than the GROUP 1-2 fader. You will have one set of monitors that you can mute (via the MONITOR LEVEL knob below the VU meter) and one you can't (those connected to GROUP OUT). This may not be a problem as there is probably a volume control/power switch on the powered monitors.

A further limitation of using the GROUP OUT to feed a set of monitors is that you won't be able to monitor the STEREO record bus (via the SOURCE button in the monitor section below the VU meter). This isn't actually a problem with the recording session set-up outlined above (where you only need to monitor the GROUP 1-2 bus) but limits flexibility in other situations.

Personally, I think I'd choose to connect them to the GROUP OUT so long as they could still be muted from the powered monitors themselves. You'd still have one set of monitors connected to the SOURCE button should you need to monitor the STEREO bus and it would leave the PHONES out available for actual headphones for quiet working (with both sets of monitors muted).

ijonty

Great, once again, thanks for such detail! Will let you know how I get on!

ijonty

@steamabacus ; So here's my attempt to map what connects where, to make it nice and simple tomorrow:

steamabacus

Diagrams are good!

Yours is neater (and more high tech) than some I've done in the past ...

ijonty

Set up now in progress and so far @steamabacus its working like a dream. Just got the third Zoom input to sort out after lunch once I’ve got a bit of work out of the way...

steamabacus

Glad you're making progress. If you have any problems I'll try and help sort them out as much as I'm able (distance diagnosis is never easy)

ijonty

steamabacus said:

Glad you're making progress. If you have any problems I'll try and help sort them out as much as I'm able (distance diagnosis is never easy)

Just an update from me: This worked perfectly. Excellent advice, nice one @steamabacus ! No way I could have done it without you

Stratavarious

If your aim is to get it into Reaper why the Zoom and jnterface at all?   The MG12XU is a great USB audio interface too.  You can ditch both,

Install the Yamaha MG driver on your pc, plug in via the usb on the back of the mixer to your pc.  You will see it as an audio input/output in Reaper.

you can mix all the instruments on the way in or and use the usb monitor to do overdubs.  For DI bass and synths use the monitor outs of you do not want to use earphones.

I do a tonne of work with one of those Yamahas in my little project studio.

you can hard pan left and right and then split the stereo tracks after if you need to separate two things at once.