Starting to look very overpriced.

Devil#20

I've just had a look at the new American Pro II series of strats and teles. Is there really that much improvement over the previous series? I love Strats and Teles but at £1600 I just don't think they are value for money anymore. When did they stop producing the American Standard and are these much different? 

I saw this second hand EC strat whilst I was having a virtual window shop for the bargain price of £4k :-(

https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/product/pxp200929362550002-5686522--fender-custom-shop-30th-anniversary-signature-eric-c

Looks exactly the same as my black Am Std strat I bought in the US in 1998 minus some paint but included a 2 quid bleed cap and resistor circuit. OK maybe a bit flippant but seriously. Is that worth £4k used? 

thegummy

The Standard stopped being produced when the Professional (mark 1) first came out. It replaced that line and is the same price-point so the price difference is just a price hike; it's not a higher model.

Personally I don't know why anyone would pay over a grand for a guitar but then again I'm not that materialistic in that I only look at guitars as tools that I can use, I don't obtain any pleasure just from owning something whereas a lot of people do.

I think it's also quite possible that some people have a deep unconscious belief that the more expensive something is, the better it is. That there must be some reason it's more expensive and a disbelief that a company would just price something to make more money without there being a corresponding increase in features or quality.

CarbonCopy

I bought an American Standard Stratocaster new in 1999 for £599. That was full price, no discounts.

Adjusted for inflation using the Bank of England's online inflation calculator, that would be £1046 in 2019 (it doesn't go to 2020 yet).

To me, that would be a perfectly acceptable price for an American Standard. Although I know it's not as simple as adjusting for inflation, I still could never bring myself to buy one of these new for £1549.

CarbonCopy

I meant 'a perfectly acceptable price for an American Pro II' in my previous post. I think of them as rebadged American Standards!

Devil#20

thegummy said:

The Standard stopped being produced when the Professional (mark 1) first came out. It replaced that line and is the same price-point so the price difference is just a price hike; it's not a higher model.

Personally I don't know why anyone would pay over a grand for a guitar but then again I'm not that materialistic in that I only look at guitars as tools that I can use, I don't obtain any pleasure just from owning something whereas a lot of people do.

I think it's also quite possible that some people have a deep unconscious belief that the more expensive something is, the better it is. That there must be some reason it's more expensive and a disbelief that a company would just price something to make more money without there being a corresponding increase in features or quality.

There's a lot of truth in that. I suspect spending a lot of money on a guitar is inversely proportional to the amount of use it's likely to get too. If you spend a few grand on a Gibson custom shop then putting a ding in it is seriously going to ruin your day. So you drag the beater out instead. I do have a Les Paul standard but I prefer playing my Les Paul studio more and I suspect that's part of the reason. My favourite tele is a bit beat up. It was a bit beat up when I got it to be fair. It's similar to those people who buy and expensive sports car and park it across 2 parking spaces because they don't want anyone scratching it. The worry and stress of ownership detracts from just enjoying it for what it is.  

Funkfingers

CarbonCopy said:

I bought an American Standard Stratocaster new in 1999 for £599. That was full price, no discounts.

Adjusted for inflation using the Bank of England's online inflation calculator, that would be £1046 in 2019 (it doesn't go to 2020 yet).

To me, that would be a perfectly acceptable price for an American Standard. Although I know it's not as simple as adjusting for inflation, I still could never bring myself to buy one of these new for £1549.

Does the inflation calculator allow for currency conversion rate variations? 

Sterling is gradually crumbling against the US Dollar. If Fender is distributing across Europe via Holland, tariffs will soon apply.  

Devil#20

CarbonCopy said:

I bought an American Standard Stratocaster new in 1999 for £599. That was full price, no discounts.

I bought my black American std new in 1998. I was living in the US at the time and the price in dollars was was there or thereabouts the same in GBP. I think I paid $700 for it at an exchange rate of around 1.6 dollars to the pound at the time. So that would be about £440. I still have it. It's the only Stratocaster I've ever owned. 

thegummy

Devil#20 said:

thegummy said:

The Standard stopped being produced when the Professional (mark 1) first came out. It replaced that line and is the same price-point so the price difference is just a price hike; it's not a higher model.

Personally I don't know why anyone would pay over a grand for a guitar but then again I'm not that materialistic in that I only look at guitars as tools that I can use, I don't obtain any pleasure just from owning something whereas a lot of people do.

I think it's also quite possible that some people have a deep unconscious belief that the more expensive something is, the better it is. That there must be some reason it's more expensive and a disbelief that a company would just price something to make more money without there being a corresponding increase in features or quality.

There's a lot of truth in that. I suspect spending a lot of money on a guitar is inversely proportional to the amount of use it's likely to get too. If you spend a few grand on a Gibson custom shop then putting a ding in it is seriously going to ruin your day. So you drag the beater out instead. I do have a Les Paul standard but I prefer playing my Les Paul studio more and I suspect that's part of the reason. My favourite tele is a bit beat up. It was a bit beat up when I got it to be fair. It's similar to those people who buy and expensive sports car and park it across 2 parking spaces because they don't want anyone scratching it. The worry and stress of ownership detracts from just enjoying it for what it is.  

Here's a tip - when you find someone parking their car across two spaces in a supermarket, take one of those plastic tier things that can't be undone and attach a trolley to their door handle. They'll have to find a knife or pair of scissors before they can leave.

CarbonCopy

Funkfingers said:

CarbonCopy said:

I bought an American Standard Stratocaster new in 1999 for £599. That was full price, no discounts.

Adjusted for inflation using the Bank of England's online inflation calculator, that would be £1046 in 2019 (it doesn't go to 2020 yet).

To me, that would be a perfectly acceptable price for an American Standard. Although I know it's not as simple as adjusting for inflation, I still could never bring myself to buy one of these new for £1549.

Does the inflation calculator allow for currency conversion rate variations? 

Sterling is gradually crumbling against the US Dollar. If Fender is distributing across Europe via Holland, tariffs will soon apply.  

No, it doesn't take into account currency conversion variations. It's certainly not as simple as adjusting for inflation, but it doesn't make it any better value for money!

Devil#20

Funkfingers said:

Does the inflation calculator allow for currency conversion rate variations? 

Sterling is gradually crumbling against the US Dollar. If Fender is distributing across Europe via Holland, tariffs will soon apply.  

But this is where basic Keynesian economics will take over. I get the impression that before tariffs kick in that Fender are stress testing the European market to gauge the demand as a function of price increase. They then have wiggle room to readjust their prices to maintain and possibly increase the pre-existing profit margin. They won't want to sacrifice their share of the European market; that's for sure.    

RaymondLin

CarbonCopy said:

I bought an American Standard Stratocaster new in 1999 for £599. That was full price, no discounts.

Adjusted for inflation using the Bank of England's online inflation calculator, that would be £1046 in 2019 (it doesn't go to 2020 yet).

To me, that would be a perfectly acceptable price for an American Standard. Although I know it's not as simple as adjusting for inflation, I still could never bring myself to buy one of these new for £1549.

I remember meeting a girl in 2000 and she had a Fender Strat that she said was worth £2k plus...I wasn’t into guitars back then but holy crap...that must have been a masterbuilt?!

thegummy

RaymondLin said:

CarbonCopy said:

I bought an American Standard Stratocaster new in 1999 for £599. That was full price, no discounts.

Adjusted for inflation using the Bank of England's online inflation calculator, that would be £1046 in 2019 (it doesn't go to 2020 yet).

To me, that would be a perfectly acceptable price for an American Standard. Although I know it's not as simple as adjusting for inflation, I still could never bring myself to buy one of these new for £1549.

I remember meeting a girl in 2000 and she had a Fender Strat that she said was worth £2k plus...I wasn’t into guitars back then but holy crap...that must have been a masterbuilt?!

Or she exaggerated lol

Rob1742

Businesses price items according to what they think they can sell them for at the time.
So maybe in 1998 or whenever, they didn’t think they could get such a mark up  for them at that particular time. Today they may think different. 

It’s their product, it’s their business, it’s up-to them. If they get it wrong and people decide to go elsewhere, it’s their problem.

No good looking at inflation and what they were sold for years ago, there will be a lot of decisions within the business, different costings and market changes that will determine today’s pricing policy.

Barnezy

Devil#20 said:

thegummy said:

The Standard stopped being produced when the Professional (mark 1) first came out. It replaced that line and is the same price-point so the price difference is just a price hike; it's not a higher model.

Personally I don't know why anyone would pay over a grand for a guitar but then again I'm not that materialistic in that I only look at guitars as tools that I can use, I don't obtain any pleasure just from owning something whereas a lot of people do.

I think it's also quite possible that some people have a deep unconscious belief that the more expensive something is, the better it is. That there must be some reason it's more expensive and a disbelief that a company would just price something to make more money without there being a corresponding increase in features or quality.

There's a lot of truth in that. I suspect spending a lot of money on a guitar is inversely proportional to the amount of use it's likely to get too. If you spend a few grand on a Gibson custom shop then putting a ding in it is seriously going to ruin your day. So you drag the beater out instead. I do have a Les Paul standard but I prefer playing my Les Paul studio more and I suspect that's part of the reason. My favourite tele is a bit beat up. It was a bit beat up when I got it to be fair. It's similar to those people who buy and expensive sports car and park it across 2 parking spaces because they don't want anyone scratching it. The worry and stress of ownership detracts from just enjoying it for what it is.  

Depends how much £2.5k is to you really. To many its not alot. Ive got a mate who is about to spend £18k on a fridge for his kitchen... a ding in a £2.5k guitar isn't going to ruin his day at all. 

The "it's just a tool" apotoach is interesting. I heard someone compare it to knives recently. A top chef may spend £1k+ on a top kitchen knife. Can you taste the difference in the food vs a £5 knife... no. Does the chef prefer using his £1k knife, yes. The same with guitars really. 

thegummy

Barnezy said:

The "it's just a tool" apotoach is interesting. I heard someone compare it to knives recently. A top chef may spend £1k+ on a top kitchen knife. Can you taste the difference in the food vs a £5 knife... no. Does the chef prefer using his £1k knife, yes. The same with guitars really. 

That analogy would only work if a £1k guitar sounded the same as a 2k one but didn't feel as good or wasn't as easy to play.

A more appropriate analogy would be the top kitchen knife vs one with an equally good blade but a fancy Gucci ornate handle that was over 2k.

A chef would find either just as good to use to cut food with; some would get more pleasure out of owning the fancy one while others wouldn't see any point in paying a penny more for it.

SlopeSoarer

Each to there own. I'd never buy a new guitar. I enjoy the hunt for a good used usually at a fraction of the new price.

You'll invariably find what you want in as new condition (or whatever condition you are happy to accept). Those that want the shiny new wall hangers generally look after them very well

phil_b

thegummy said:

I think it's also quite possible that some people have a deep unconscious belief that the more expensive something is, the better it is. That there must be some reason it's more expensive and a disbelief that a company would just price something to make more money without there being a corresponding increase in features or quality.

look at perfume price for evidence of this

kentuckyklira

Devil#20 said:

thegummy said:

The Standard stopped being produced when the Professional (mark 1) first came out. It replaced that line and is the same price-point so the price difference is just a price hike; it's not a higher model.

Personally I don't know why anyone would pay over a grand for a guitar but then again I'm not that materialistic in that I only look at guitars as tools that I can use, I don't obtain any pleasure just from owning something whereas a lot of people do.

I think it's also quite possible that some people have a deep unconscious belief that the more expensive something is, the better it is. That there must be some reason it's more expensive and a disbelief that a company would just price something to make more money without there being a corresponding increase in features or quality.

There's a lot of truth in that. I suspect spending a lot of money on a guitar is inversely proportional to the amount of use it's likely to get too. If you spend a few grand on a Gibson custom shop then putting a ding in it is seriously going to ruin your day. So you drag the beater out instead. I do have a Les Paul standard but I prefer playing my Les Paul studio more and I suspect that's part of the reason. My favourite tele is a bit beat up. It was a bit beat up when I got it to be fair. It's similar to those people who buy and expensive sports car and park it across 2 parking spaces because they don't want anyone scratching it. The worry and stress of ownership detracts from just enjoying it for what it is.  

This is one of the reasons I avoid buying new guitars. The second hand market is huge and when a guitar, regardless of what I paid for it, already has some dings and dongs I don´t mind new ones nearly as much.

Barnezy

thegummy said:

Barnezy said:

The "it's just a tool" apotoach is interesting. I heard someone compare it to knives recently. A top chef may spend £1k+ on a top kitchen knife. Can you taste the difference in the food vs a £5 knife... no. Does the chef prefer using his £1k knife, yes. The same with guitars really. 

That analogy would only work if a £1k guitar sounded the same as a 2k one but didn't feel as good or wasn't as easy to play.

A more appropriate analogy would be the top kitchen knife vs one with an equally good blade but a fancy Gucci ornate handle that was over 2k.

A chef would find either just as good to use to cut food with; some would get more pleasure out of owning the fancy one while others wouldn't see any point in paying a penny more for it.

A £1k Fender Strat has the same logo as a £5k Fender Strat. No one is putting a Guci logo on them so don't really understand you analogy. 

If you can't tell the difference between the average factory line built guitar and the average Custom Shop guitar, then you'll be happy with the factory line model and good for you. 

Anyway who cares. If you can afford nice things, why not enjoy them. I'm 100% sure it has absolutely nothing to do with being flashy. 

BlueStrat

Whats the point of working hard if you don’t get to treat yourself from time to time?
If you can afford a 2k, 3k, 5k guitar go for it and enjoy it. 

Your car depreciates far more and far faster than any guitar ever will

Fledermaus

Barnezy said:

thegummy said:

Barnezy said:

The "it's just a tool" apotoach is interesting. I heard someone compare it to knives recently. A top chef may spend £1k+ on a top kitchen knife. Can you taste the difference in the food vs a £5 knife... no. Does the chef prefer using his £1k knife, yes. The same with guitars really. 

That analogy would only work if a £1k guitar sounded the same as a 2k one but didn't feel as good or wasn't as easy to play.

A more appropriate analogy would be the top kitchen knife vs one with an equally good blade but a fancy Gucci ornate handle that was over 2k.

A chef would find either just as good to use to cut food with; some would get more pleasure out of owning the fancy one while others wouldn't see any point in paying a penny more for it.

A £1k Fender Strat has the same logo as a £5k Fender Strat. No one is putting a Guci logo on them so don't really understand you analogy. 

If you can't tell the difference between the average factory line built guitar and the average Custom Shop guitar, then you'll be happy with the factory line model and good for you. 

Anyway who cares. If you can afford nice things, why not enjoy them. I'm 100% sure it has absolutely nothing to do with being flashy. 

The knife comparison is interesting.. I play guitar, I’m a chef. Before I began work in a kitchen I wouldn’t have considered spending three figures on a knife.... but when it is the main tool of your trade and you are using it day in day out, you appreciate the balance, the weight, does it keep an edge well, is the size appropriate for the task, hence you have several knives....

Same with guitars I suspect. I’m not a great player, but I have a handful of guitars, all very different. If you are even semi professional you will need several and all of a certain quality.

I suspect though there has to be an optimum price, beyond which you are not gaining any improvement or finesse, just an exclusive piece. 

I suspect we’ve all payed other people’s instruments over the years and though “ wow, nice” and it turns out to be nothing of any “worth” but still a wonderful guitar..