Starting to look very overpriced.

TINMAN82

thegummy said:

TINMAN82 said:

The “tangible benefits” depend on the player who has it in their hands. That player will have a reference point based on experience of other instruments. 

Of course intangible, subjective factors also contribute to value, mojo and desirability as with most consumables. These things won't necessarily make a guitar sound better.

That's just the point I was making - that above about a grand, any extras that people pay more for aren't things that make it a more practical tool, it's other things that make it more appealing to some people.

Well...that's not actually the point I was making, but you've done a good job moulding it to suit your point of view!

£1k is pretty arbitrary too.

Bellycaster

I think list price for an Am. Std Tele in 2015 was £1250 approx, but with the usual deals and competition, I got price match for about £1150 ish from PMT..............and a begrudging set of strings.



In 2025, one will cost about 5000 ElectroSocioCredits, give or take the odd IngsocCent.

Tenebrous

Bellycaster said:

I think list price for an Am. Std Tele in 2015 was £1250 approx, but with the usual deals and competition, I got price match for about £1150 ish from PMT..............and a begrudging set of strings.



In 2025, one will cost about 5000 ElectroSocioCredits, give or take the odd IngsocCent.

AmStan Tele in 2006 set me back £800 from PMT.

thegummy

Whitecat said:

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Not the cheap soft fretwire.  A refret by someone decent will set you back over £200.  Closer to £300 in London where I live.

By the time you do that, and replace all the hardware, you are up to the £1k mark, and maybe beyond if you go for high end hardware.

Then you still have a guitar that's probably made from cheap wood and got a horrible thick gloopy plastic finish.  I seem to remember you being from the wood doesn't affect the tone camp, so their may be some logic to your view that you can buy a cheapy and upgrade the hardware, but in reality wood does affect the tone.  A lot of knowledgeable people are also of the view that thickness of finish has an effect as well.

Re: the "cheap wood" thing - do you know from a reliable source that there are different qualities of wood used for different price point guitars or is it possibly along the lines of the "there must be reasons for the increased price" thing where it's more of an assumption?

I know that at the very high level they go to "wood libraries" and hand pick pieces of wood that they believe will be good for guitars, I'm talking more at the £500 - £1000 - £2000 levels where it's mass produced.

P.S. I'm not in the "wood doesn't affect tone" camp. I'm in the "without real evidence, both sides are guessing camp" with my own guess being that it does affect tone.

I know for sure that most companies sort wood by weight. Not necessarily tone, obvs - but with Gibson, for example, R9/0s get the lightest mahogany blanks, R8 second lightest and downward etc... each shelf has an “up to” limit. With Fender, it’s pretty obvious that the Custom Shop gets the lightest alder (and formerly ash, but I guess nowadays they just get all the ash). PRS is an outlier in that for the non PS/wood library stuff I think the mahogany backs are all off the same pile no matter what the guitar, but they are concerned more with the grade of the maple top and that’s where the focus/price lies...

I had no idea that R8s were heavier than R9s - what's the thinking behind that? Were 58 models heavier?

Bellycaster

Tenebrous said:

Bellycaster said:

I think list price for an Am. Std Tele in 2015 was £1250 approx, but with the usual deals and competition, I got price match for about £1150 ish from PMT..............and a begrudging set of strings.



In 2025, one will cost about 5000 ElectroSocioCredits, give or take the odd IngsocCent.

AmStan Tele in 2006 set me back £800 from PMT.

I'm no Maths Bod, but looking at yours and my figures, it seems they are not sky rocketing in price. Although I think they are pinching a tad upon every renaming of the same-ish Guitar.

Shops are already knocking off £50 here and there, so, everything included, I don't think it's worth the outrage.

Fucking robbing Bastard, Blood-Sucking, Corporate, Art Destroying Shits!   

Whitecat

thegummy said:

Whitecat said:

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Not the cheap soft fretwire.  A refret by someone decent will set you back over £200.  Closer to £300 in London where I live.

By the time you do that, and replace all the hardware, you are up to the £1k mark, and maybe beyond if you go for high end hardware.

Then you still have a guitar that's probably made from cheap wood and got a horrible thick gloopy plastic finish.  I seem to remember you being from the wood doesn't affect the tone camp, so their may be some logic to your view that you can buy a cheapy and upgrade the hardware, but in reality wood does affect the tone.  A lot of knowledgeable people are also of the view that thickness of finish has an effect as well.

Re: the "cheap wood" thing - do you know from a reliable source that there are different qualities of wood used for different price point guitars or is it possibly along the lines of the "there must be reasons for the increased price" thing where it's more of an assumption?

I know that at the very high level they go to "wood libraries" and hand pick pieces of wood that they believe will be good for guitars, I'm talking more at the £500 - £1000 - £2000 levels where it's mass produced.

P.S. I'm not in the "wood doesn't affect tone" camp. I'm in the "without real evidence, both sides are guessing camp" with my own guess being that it does affect tone.

I know for sure that most companies sort wood by weight. Not necessarily tone, obvs - but with Gibson, for example, R9/0s get the lightest mahogany blanks, R8 second lightest and downward etc... each shelf has an “up to” limit. With Fender, it’s pretty obvious that the Custom Shop gets the lightest alder (and formerly ash, but I guess nowadays they just get all the ash). PRS is an outlier in that for the non PS/wood library stuff I think the mahogany backs are all off the same pile no matter what the guitar, but they are concerned more with the grade of the maple top and that’s where the focus/price lies...

I had no idea that R8s were heavier than R9s - what's the thinking behind that? Were 58 models heavier?

I suspect honestly it’s just to help justify the higher price. 

Everything is relative of course depending on the shipment they get - hence the “or less” - and the weight of the maple is not in the base calculation, so it’s certainly not impossible to get an R8 that’s still
lighter than an R9. But I guess they try to aim for a certain range and hope for the best. 

skunkwerx

Bellycaster said:

I think list price for an Am. Std Tele in 2015 was £1250 approx, but with the usual deals and competition, I got price match for about £1150 ish from PMT..............and a begrudging set of strings.



In 2025, one will cost about 5000 ElectroSocioCredits, give or take the odd IngsocCent.

Its funny how they sometimes give freebies and other times just wont. 

Yesterday I ordered £30 worth of strings from Andertons, so as I usually do I put a lil note on the order, said hey can I have a sticker please too? (Currently sticker bombing the inside of my wardrobe like a teenager lol)

Package arrived today sealed in 5 miles of saranwrap and 3 layers of bubble wrap. 

No fucking sticker to be seen though. 

Miserable bastards. 

Whitecat

Bellycaster said:

Shops are already knocking off £50 here and there

Tbh I think they have to... the CMA is watching carefully, apparently. If it doesn't look like they're competing, there's trouble abound.

Bellycaster

skunkwerx said:

Bellycaster said:

I think list price for an Am. Std Tele in 2015 was £1250 approx, but with the usual deals and competition, I got price match for about £1150 ish from PMT..............and a begrudging set of strings.



In 2025, one will cost about 5000 ElectroSocioCredits, give or take the odd IngsocCent.

Its funny how they sometimes give freebies and other times just wont. 

Yesterday I ordered £30 worth of strings from Andertons, so as I usually do I put a lil note on the order, said hey can I have a sticker please too? (Currently sticker bombing the inside of my wardrobe like a teenager lol)

Package arrived today sealed in 5 miles of saranwrap and 3 layers of bubble wrap. 

No fucking sticker to be seen though. 

Miserable bastards. 

Ahhh, you see, if you'd have gone in person, they would have buckled to your sticker negotiation. No good demanding stickers from a remote location

How do you think I feel? Driving from the Soliloquous surroundings of Sheffield up to the Badlands of Leeds to buy a Guitar in the flesh and only coming away with a free set of Ernie Balls?

Seeing Leeds is a major contributor to PTSD numbers in the UK.

skunkwerx

Bellycaster said:

skunkwerx said:

Bellycaster said:

I think list price for an Am. Std Tele in 2015 was £1250 approx, but with the usual deals and competition, I got price match for about £1150 ish from PMT..............and a begrudging set of strings.



In 2025, one will cost about 5000 ElectroSocioCredits, give or take the odd IngsocCent.

Its funny how they sometimes give freebies and other times just wont. 

Yesterday I ordered £30 worth of strings from Andertons, so as I usually do I put a lil note on the order, said hey can I have a sticker please too? (Currently sticker bombing the inside of my wardrobe like a teenager lol)

Package arrived today sealed in 5 miles of saranwrap and 3 layers of bubble wrap. 

No fucking sticker to be seen though. 

Miserable bastards. 

Ahhh, you see, if you'd have gone in person, they would have buckled to your sticker negotiation. No good demanding stickers from a remote location

How do you think I feel? Driving from the Soliloquous surroundings of Sheffield up to the Badlands of Leeds to buy a Guitar in the flesh and only coming away with a free set of Ernie Balls?

Seeing Leeds is a major contributor to PTSD numbers in the UK.

Haha true, true. Next time I’ll go in the flesh and do the puppy dog eyes thing. 

Leeds you say? I’ve never been.. but I’ve heard the stories.. they say it leaves no man left alive! 

RustySpanner

RaymondLin Frets: 6371

October 16 Flag

RustySpanner said:

Recently bought a 2019 Japanese Limited Collection Strat - nitro, Custom Shop '69 pickups, £1199.

I thought it was expensive at the time, but it's increasingly looking like a serious bargain.  

This one.

https://www.reidys.com/electric-guitars-c14/fender-made-in-japan-limited-collection-strat-rw-ice-blue-metallic-p7298

Looks like it was £1249, my memory must be playing tricks.
I'll check the receipt. 

My first Strat, but second Japanese Fender.
Delightful. 
Reidys in Blackburn had it in pre Covid but only listed it recently. 

SPECTRUM001

Feels to me like global manufacturing and consumption has scrambled up our understanding of value across household and non essential possessions.

Personally, I think a guitar is a thing of function and beauty, so quite incredible that you can pick up a decent new example for £500 or less.

I can also recognise the development of quality as the tariffs rise - an Am Standard does sound and feel somewhat better than a Player.

Does a Custom Shop warrant doubling the price again ? Possibly not, but if consumers desire a particular feel, weight, craftsmanship etc, then it would appear they are happy to pay for the privilege (and let’s be frank - these are not being bought by youngsters just hitting their first bit of press or album, they are marketed at an older player who has the money to spend).

I just sold my beloved Peugeot 205 for £150. It still worked, and could zip around London quite happily. Why was it worth so little ? Because it hasn’t got much life left, and no one really wanted it. Crazy in a way, but that is what the market dictates.

I don’t fee that guitars are overpriced at all, when placed into context of what they are and will be. We have a lot of choice, so can do exactly that.

stickyfiddle

Tenebrous said:

Out of interest, where are the cut corners on the Yamaha 611 range?

https://www.andertons.co.uk/guitar-dept/electric-guitars/modern-body-guitars/yamaha-pacifica-611vfm-electric-guitar-in-root-beer

I've had a few of these, & the attention to detail on the fretwork is better than any Fender I've owned, the hardware is solid, rosewood neck, great SD pickups, etc. No case I guess compared to a USA Fender, but at 30-40% of the price, I think that's alright.

Predominantly in the factory location, at a guess - Taiwan for Pacificas these days, iirc. 

Blaendulais

monquixote said:

I think a lot of pricing is due to supply and demand.

I recently bought a new AO Tele for £1,350 they are RRP £1,700 and a lot of shops are now selling them for that because sales are sky high and supply is still low.

All of pricing is supply and demand .

thegummy

Whitecat said:

thegummy said:

Whitecat said:

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Not the cheap soft fretwire.  A refret by someone decent will set you back over £200.  Closer to £300 in London where I live.

By the time you do that, and replace all the hardware, you are up to the £1k mark, and maybe beyond if you go for high end hardware.

Then you still have a guitar that's probably made from cheap wood and got a horrible thick gloopy plastic finish.  I seem to remember you being from the wood doesn't affect the tone camp, so their may be some logic to your view that you can buy a cheapy and upgrade the hardware, but in reality wood does affect the tone.  A lot of knowledgeable people are also of the view that thickness of finish has an effect as well.

Re: the "cheap wood" thing - do you know from a reliable source that there are different qualities of wood used for different price point guitars or is it possibly along the lines of the "there must be reasons for the increased price" thing where it's more of an assumption?

I know that at the very high level they go to "wood libraries" and hand pick pieces of wood that they believe will be good for guitars, I'm talking more at the £500 - £1000 - £2000 levels where it's mass produced.

P.S. I'm not in the "wood doesn't affect tone" camp. I'm in the "without real evidence, both sides are guessing camp" with my own guess being that it does affect tone.

I know for sure that most companies sort wood by weight. Not necessarily tone, obvs - but with Gibson, for example, R9/0s get the lightest mahogany blanks, R8 second lightest and downward etc... each shelf has an “up to” limit. With Fender, it’s pretty obvious that the Custom Shop gets the lightest alder (and formerly ash, but I guess nowadays they just get all the ash). PRS is an outlier in that for the non PS/wood library stuff I think the mahogany backs are all off the same pile no matter what the guitar, but they are concerned more with the grade of the maple top and that’s where the focus/price lies...

I had no idea that R8s were heavier than R9s - what's the thinking behind that? Were 58 models heavier?

I suspect honestly it’s just to help justify the higher price. 

Everything is relative of course depending on the shipment they get - hence the “or less” - and the weight of the maple is not in the base calculation, so it’s certainly not impossible to get an R8 that’s still
lighter than an R9. But I guess they try to aim for a certain range and hope for the best. 

Aye there's an element of luck as well; with the standard ranges there possibly isn't any weight binning at all so it's all just luck.

Incidentally the lightest guitar I've ever played was an American Standard Tele.

Has anyone ever found out if Fender's American standard model use selectively lighter pieces of wood than their Mexican standard model?

I think a lot of people kind of assume, maybe even subconsciously, that the wood will be better on the more expensive instrument but I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't anything to ensure that.

thegummy

Blaendulais said:

monquixote said:

I think a lot of pricing is due to supply and demand.

I recently bought a new AO Tele for £1,350 they are RRP £1,700 and a lot of shops are now selling them for that because sales are sky high and supply is still low.

All of pricing is supply and demand .

Basically this is true.

Although there are other things that affect the minimum price that can be realistically asked so sometimes the demanded price can't be supplied. If you know what I mean.

crunchman

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Not the cheap soft fretwire.  A refret by someone decent will set you back over £200.  Closer to £300 in London where I live.

By the time you do that, and replace all the hardware, you are up to the £1k mark, and maybe beyond if you go for high end hardware.

Then you still have a guitar that's probably made from cheap wood and got a horrible thick gloopy plastic finish.  I seem to remember you being from the wood doesn't affect the tone camp, so their may be some logic to your view that you can buy a cheapy and upgrade the hardware, but in reality wood does affect the tone.  A lot of knowledgeable people are also of the view that thickness of finish has an effect as well.

Re: the "cheap wood" thing - do you know from a reliable source that there are different qualities of wood used for different price point guitars or is it possibly along the lines of the "there must be reasons for the increased price" thing where it's more of an assumption?

I know that at the very high level they go to "wood libraries" and hand pick pieces of wood that they believe will be good for guitars, I'm talking more at the £500 - £1000 - £2000 levels where it's mass produced.

P.S. I'm not in the "wood doesn't affect tone" camp. I'm in the "without real evidence, both sides are guessing camp" with my own guess being that it does affect tone.

You definitely see different species of wood lower down the price range.  If you look at the Yamaha Revstar range at Andertons, the £399 guitar has a body made of nato.  Higher up the range, you get mahogany with a maple cap.

Looking at the various models of Ibanez RG on the Andertons website, the cheaper ones have a jatoba fretboard, but there is one at £1100ish with an ebony board.

You will also see sapele instead of mahogany on cheaper guitars.

I'm not certain how much big manufacturers sort their wood for their different ranges.  Gibson do it in the Custom shop, as seen above.  Lower down their range, they cheat by weight relieving the guitars.  It's obviously cheaper for them to add an extra process for the weight relief than to buy in good quality lightweight mahogany.  That says something about the wood price in itself.

Voxman

I have a 2009 USA standard that's a limited version with delta tone and matching colour headstock. New price then was around £1000, so ignoring bona fide upgrade costs, assuming inflation averaging 2.5% per annum compound, that would mean the equivalent price in October 2020 would be around £1,325. So £1599 with improvements doesnt seem unreasonable.  Bear in mind you can probably shave a bit off as there will always be some price flexibility if you visit or even just talk to the store.

melod

I think cheaper guitars are pretty good value these days (400-800). American pro , or similar, have been a bit pricey even factoring in the currency fluctuations but not by that much.

The big scandal is the whole custom shop type of stuff. 3-4K for a Tele is ludicrous. At least, that price hike makes a case for going completely bespoke as prices of well respected luthiers are not far off and most definitely will offer more attention to building.

thegummy

crunchman said:

You definitely see different species of wood lower down the price range.  If you look at the Yamaha Revstar range at Andertons, the £399 guitar has a body made of nato.  Higher up the range, you get mahogany with a maple cap.

Looking at the various models of Ibanez RG on the Andertons website, the cheaper ones have a jatoba fretboard, but there is one at £1100ish with an ebony board.

You will also see sapele instead of mahogany on cheaper guitars.

I'm not certain how much big manufacturers sort their wood for their different ranges.  Gibson do it in the Custom shop, as seen above.  Lower down their range, they cheat by weight relieving the guitars.  It's obviously cheaper for them to add an extra process for the weight relief than to buy in good quality lightweight mahogany.  That says something about the wood price in itself.

I'm meaning like the Player Strat vs the Professional Strat where they both use the same type of wood.

In fact in the past few years there's been a big change re: the fretboard material for the non-maple fretboards as the Mexican range has pau ferro and the American has rosewood. As a lot of people are keen to point out though - that's not a lesser wood species on the cheaper models in any way but it is one of the situations where if you want specifically rosewood then you have to buy the more expensive guitar.