Help picking a classical guitar

vincechu89

Edit - I’ve decided it’s a conventional classical I want instead of a cross over so post updated.

Hi everyone,

After a long break from classical of 12 years I really want to get back into it and buy a nice classical. I am way out of touch with classical brands/luthiers now so I’m appealing for help and suggestions.

My budget is around £3k but could possibly sell or part ex for something a little more. I have a preference for Spruce and rosewood but am open minded.

It looks like Burguet have lovely guitars at around £2-3k and Thomann has an intriguing Sakurai Kohno at just above 3k, if anyone has experience of these brands I’d really appreciate it.

Many thanks in advance.

TheBigDipper

If you missed it, here's the thread from my little journey earlier this year. I spent twice my planned budget, but that's still only half yours. 

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/186276/what-classical-guitar-should-i-look-for/p1

No regrets so far... 

vincechu89

TheBigDipper said:

If you missed it, here's the thread from my little journey earlier this year. I spent twice my planned budget, but that's still only half yours. 

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/186276/what-classical-guitar-should-i-look-for/p1

No regrets so far... 

Thanks, well if there is no need to spend more then I will more than happily save some money. I’ve only heard good things about the Cordobas, I really need to find one in stock locally to try. Thanks again

Toms_Dad

Eastman produce their cabaret model, which looks to be very high quality but I have not tried one. I have, however, tried the Cordoba GK Pro and that is a lovely guitar. Very few manufacturers have many in their range, but Cordoba seem to specialise in them.
Are you sure you want a crossover though? I have yet to try one that has the depth of tone a good classical guitar can produce, and if you are playing primarily acoustically, that might matter. I would also say that if you are playing classical music the wider string spacing is actually a good thing to help play clean.
Another idea might be a short scale (say 630mm) guitar, or perhaps a Torres style which is also slightly smaller than standard. London guitar studio often have one or two of these in.

vincechu89

Toms_Dad said:

Eastman produce their cabaret model, which looks to be very high quality but I have not tried one. I have, however, tried the Cordoba GK Pro and that is a lovely guitar. Very few manufacturers have many in their range, but Cordoba seem to specialise in them.
Are you sure you want a crossover though? I have yet to try one that has the depth of tone a good classical guitar can produce, and if you are playing primarily acoustically, that might matter. I would also say that if you are playing classical music the wider string spacing is actually a good thing to help play clean.
Another idea might be a short scale (say 630mm) guitar, or perhaps a Torres style which is also slightly smaller than standard. London guitar studio often have one or two of these in.

Thanks looking further, I think a conventional classical will actually be better for my needs and there’s much more choice. I’ll update my original post to reflect this.

GTC

A lot of the producers of crossover guitars specialize in steel-strung instruments and this often shows in their heavier build and tone. If you want something that feels like an electric or steel-strung acoustic then I would recommend a look at the Furch Grand Nylon series - beautifully built and voiced and with a 45mm nut width and radiused fretboard.

The Cordoba GK Pro is a nice guitar at a cheaper price - 50mm nut and flat fretboard and a surprisingly good action for a classical - but IMO nowhere near a good as the Furch. I've had both the Cordoba and Furch in my time.

Conventional classics - Typically 52mm or sometimes 50mm nut width, flat fretboard (but sometimes 24" radius - e.g. La Patrie)
Crossovers - Typically 48mm (but sometimes less) nut width, lightly radiused (usually 24" but sometimes 16" fretboard radius)

Only you can tell what is right for you. Try and go somewhere that there will be a wind range of choice of crossovers and conventional classicals.

Although they look similar, bracing patterns (e.g. modern lattice or traditional fan) and some of the more modern build innovations (e.g. double top) can make a huge difference to classical guitar tone - as can the type of strings used (e.g. different tensions / conventional nylon or fluorocarbon).

I've been playing nylon strung guitars almost exclusively for the past few months and have got various types which all have their own strengths and appeal

m0rt

As someone else who exclusively plays nylon, there have been good comments in this thread.

I own a GK Pro (Cypress). it is more a flamenco style of guitar in that the action is more in keeping than with the usual classical. It is surprising nuanced; it is lightly built and the projection belies its size.

Interesting sidenote told to me by Back Alley Music when I bought a Cordoba C9 crossover - The Gypsy Kings played Llangollen last year. One of the guitarists, guitar was lost during flight  - they phoned up Back Alley, a Cordoba dealer, asking for a GK Pro and subsequently picked it up and used it for the show.

No idea how true it is.

Also the FCWE is now being remade. The main difference is thinner body but thicker neck.

But all three well worth trying. Wth your budget you could even get the C12 AND the GK Pro for whatever mood you are in at the time.

GTC

Just to correct my last post - the one I had was a GK Studio Negra and not the more expensive all-solid Pro model which would approach the upper Furch Grand Nylon models in price.

The GK Studio Negra was nonetheless a fine guitar with a balanced tone which suited a wide range of genres including classical. I thought it was an all-round better guitar than the Cordoba Fusion 12 (which I also had).

steveh

vincechu89 said:

Edit - I’ve decided it’s a conventional classical I want instead of a cross over so post updated.

My budget is around £3k but could possibly sell or part ex for something a little more.

I also play nylon almost exclusively these days. IMHO avoiding a crossover is a good idea. The very best nylon luthiers avoid these.

At 3K + you should be thinking of a sole luthier built guitar, and that amount will get you something quite astonishing. Get yourself over to DELCAMP and look at the classifieds. I've sold a Kris Barnett, Bert Kwakkel Merula, and Yulong Guo over there for uner 3K, the Guo for half your budget. 

If buying new, I'd give serious consideration to Stephen Eden, who built the Cadenza for Kent Guitar Classics before Miles retired. It was a "stripped down" nylon that was all about tone rather than fancy rosettes, and way under your budget. Check this:

http://www.edenguitars.co.uk/Cadenza.html

I'd contact Stephen and see what he can do for you in a similar vein. I've got no affiliation. You'd get a guitar hand-built for you, with the care and attention to detail and voicing that you get from a sole luthier setup. They put out a crap guitar, and their career is over.

If you're a bit more flush, Kris Barnett will build you a monster guitar, but you may have to wait a while for it. Worth it though. His build quality is insane. Kris is from the USA but builds in Berlin:

https://www.krisbarnettguitars.com

steveh

vincechu89 said:

and Thomann has an intriguing Sakurai Kohno at just above 3k, if anyone has experience of these brands I’d really appreciate it.

PS: I had a Kohno a few years back - bought it because Steve Howe used one for Mood For A Day, and back then that was the only nylon guitar I'd heard of.
Based on my n=1 experiment, you do pay for the name a bit.
I replaced it with a used Phillip Woodfield and that changed my guitar-playing life forever.

vincechu89

Thanks for the suggestions gents, much appreciated.

steveh said:

vincechu89 said:

and Thomann has an intriguing Sakurai Kohno at just above 3k, if anyone has experience of these brands I’d really appreciate it.

PS: I had a Kohno a few years back - bought it because Steve Howe used one for Mood For A Day, and back then that was the only nylon guitar I'd heard of.
Based on my n=1 experiment, you do pay for the name a bit.
I replaced it with a used Phillip Woodfield and that changed my guitar-playing life forever.

Thanks, I’ve been eyeing up a Steven Eden at Delcamp and there seems to be a few other gems. It’s a real shame about the lockdown or I’d probably have travelled to try a few by now.

How did you find the Yulong Guo? The construction seems interesting and Smallman-esque, though I may be wrong as I’ve been out of the classica game for so long

m0rt

Stephen Eden - I had the fortune to play a longer scale version a few years ago. It was a lovely tone.

steveh

vincechu89 said:

How did you find the Yulong Guo? The construction seems interesting and Smallman-esque, though I may be wrong as I’ve been out of the classica game for so long

TBH, I found the Guo very one-dimensional: It had a double top AND lattice bracing, and it was like riding in a Ferrari with the accelerator floored continuously. Very loud with huge separation and immense clarity, but I found it difficult to play with subtlety or much tone colour. I got it in a p/ex deal for one of my other classicals. The Guos come from a small shop setup like Lowden etc.

I am a big fan of lattice braced guitars (aka Smallman) when they are built well, and Phillip Woodfield is by far the best I have come across. Philips guitars are extremely good value when compared to other top makers as he feels uncomfortable charging players too much (a lot of pros use his instruments), but something has to give and that is his wait time: Around 5 years currently. I got one of his instruments used a few years ago and was so blown away I immediately ordered one built to my specs; I waited 3 years for it and it was worth every second!

Fan-braced guitars are equally good, but different; more traditional tone, and they need more input from the player but, on average, you are rewarded by access to more colour. 

Kris Barnett's guitars are a sort of mix of lattice and fan bracing and sound it; great attributes of both.

Just my opinion, but the care and attention afforded by a sole luthier like these guys brings you so much more for your £££ and, like I said above, with 3K in your pocket you can play in that game if you go for a stripped down model like the Cadenza. You are also dealing with the luthier directly and that (almost always) means no VAT (as most don't reach the 85k pa turnover threshold), and no dealer/distributors commission either.

Let us know how you get on.

GTC

I have a Yulong Guo copy  - made to his design by one of his apprentices. Unlike the "full Guo" this has a solid cedar top rather than a double top - but has lattice bracing and the double layer rosewood domed back. It also has a drop-body ("raised" fretboard"), a soundport and an armrest. Being left-handed, I bought it from Calido Guitars in the US. It has a high build quality.

The spec is quite similar to the Cordoba C12 mentioned earlier - although that doesn't have the armrest or soundport.

The solid cedar top tempers the sound a bit compared to a full-Guo but it certainly is very powerful. It was quite a revelation (shock) when I first played it. There is one very similar to mine with flamed maple back and sides for sale on eBay at the moment at what looks like a very good price - from UK-based Rathbone and Brown (but made in China). https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classical-guitar-top-design-by-luthier-Yulong-guo/293811786051?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D415e2d9a46c74a8f9154d6943bcb0fa4%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D293811786051%26itm%3D293811786051%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A7dbe664f-20ed-11eb-b7ea-a6f9a4ef7118%7Cparentrq%3Aa27e6b0c1750aad9377a11d2ffece553%7Ciid%3A1

I also have a Japan-made 1970's Asturias John Mills 3456 lefty - with traditional fan-bracing and a very sweet traditional sound - and a custom Brook Cary - also with fan bracing but a heavier build with a lovely balanced tone but needs the brightness of fluorocarbon trebles to bring out the best in it.

I wouldn't say I have a great preference for one over another - it all depends on my music and mood at the time but it is nice to have the choice.

Also - as a sofa guitar I have a humble Cordoba Cadete 3/4 which I converted to left-handed and use hard tension strings to compensate for the shorter scale length. It is an amazing instrument for the price (£140 from eBay)

Good luck!

ToneControl

steveh said:

vincechu89 said:

How did you find the Yulong Guo? The construction seems interesting and Smallman-esque, though I may be wrong as I’ve been out of the classica game for so long

TBH, I found the Guo very one-dimensional: It had a double top AND lattice bracing, and it was like riding in a Ferrari with the accelerator floored continuously. Very loud with huge separation and immense clarity, but I found it difficult to play with subtlety or much tone colour. I got it in a p/ex deal for one of my other classicals. The Guos come from a small shop setup like Lowden etc.

I am a big fan of lattice braced guitars (aka Smallman) when they are built well, and Phillip Woodfield is by far the best I have come across. Philips guitars are extremely good value when compared to other top makers as he feels uncomfortable charging players too much (a lot of pros use his instruments), but something has to give and that is his wait time: Around 5 years currently. I got one of his instruments used a few years ago and was so blown away I immediately ordered one built to my specs; I waited 3 years for it and it was worth every second!

Fan-braced guitars are equally good, but different; more traditional tone, and they need more input from the player but, on average, you are rewarded by access to more colour. 

Kris Barnett's guitars are a sort of mix of lattice and fan bracing and sound it; great attributes of both.

Just my opinion, but the care and attention afforded by a sole luthier like these guys brings you so much more for your £££ and, like I said above, with 3K in your pocket you can play in that game if you go for a stripped down model like the Cadenza. You are also dealing with the luthier directly and that (almost always) means no VAT (as most don't reach the 85k pa turnover threshold), and no dealer/distributors commission either.

Let us know how you get on.

Did you try carbon strings on the Guo? I think they are essential to crispen up the double-top sound
I find the soundport is too large, which is something I have seen on some other guitars, so the mid-bass frequencies are boomy. Guo provide an insert with hole in which tames this

My other proper classical is a Stephen Hill, who builds in the south of Spain, and does lattice bracing as well as fan bracing, I'm very impressed, Have you heard of him?

ToneControl

vincechu89 said:

Edit - I’ve decided it’s a conventional classical I want instead of a cross over so post updated.

Hi everyone,

After a long break from classical of 12 years I really want to get back into it and buy a nice classical. I am way out of touch with classical brands/luthiers now so I’m appealing for help and suggestions.

My budget is around £3k but could possibly sell or part ex for something a little more. I have a preference for Spruce and rosewood but am open minded.

It looks like Burguet have lovely guitars at around £2-3k and Thomann has an intriguing Sakurai Kohno at just above 3k, if anyone has experience of these brands I’d really appreciate it.

Many thanks in advance.

I'll summarise what I said in the last thread

Buy used
Visit the shop: London guitar studio
visit independent brokers who have 10-30 guitars in their house
Try some lattice braced ones

Solo  luthiers charge about £5k new

The guitars vary a lot, much more important to try a few rather than buying mail order off ebay
e.g. I rejected a Ramirez 1A for sale at the same broker's house when I bought my Stephen Hill

Also: top-notch concert guitars are/were often built for unamplified volume projection in a performance hall, and can be harder and less rewarding to play for personal playing and recording

vincechu89

Thanks everyone, just waiting on lockdown to lift so i can shop around now. Classical Guitar Centre in Birmingham seems to be my first port of call due to proximity.

ToneControl

Also keep an eye out for these: luthier-quality Chinese copies of famous classical designs. I tried one that was exceptionally good

http://www.milestonesofmusic.com.cn/The-Guitars?_l=en

ToneControl

vincechu89 said:

Thanks everyone, just waiting on lockdown to lift so i can shop around now. Classical Guitar Centre in Birmingham seems to be my first port of call due to proximity.

yep, just advising that the London price has a wider range of solo luthier stuff, and more high-end used stuff
The lady in the shop is an exceptionally knowledgeable player, and I'd recommend phoning her now to discuss the subject, if they are taking calls.

steveh

ToneControl Did you try carbon strings on the Guo? I think they are essential to crispen up the double-top sound

I find the soundport is too large, which is something I have seen on some other guitars, so the mid-bass frequencies are boomy. Guo provide an insert with hole in which tames this

My other proper classical is a Stephen Hill, who builds in the south of Spain, and does lattice bracing as well as fan bracing, I'm very impressed, Have you heard of him?

The Guo was incredibly bright and forceful with nylon: I think fluorocarbon would have sliced my head off. There was nothing "boomy" about it at all, which I agree can be a problem with some doubletops (David Russel's Dammann is perhaps the warmest nylon I've heard; almost sounds lacking in treble live). Given that my Guo combined both lattice and doubletop, to my ears it was far more the former than latter. 

Yes, Stephen Hill is a "big name" in nylon guitars. I've never played one personally but have heard Gary Ryan's several times.

steveh

ToneControl said:

The lady in the shop is an exceptionally knowledgeable player, and I'd recommend phoning her now to discuss the subject, if they are taking calls.

Yep - London Guitar Studio usually has a very broad selection of guitars and she is indeed very helpful and knowledgeable. Of course it's cheaper to buy from the luthier directly but you do get to try a selection and they often have some used pieces in at very good prices.

It's always worth talking to luthiers directly. I've been offered some very tempting deals as have some of my pals. Its competitive out there, especially at the moment. A very polite "Can you do anything for £XXX" is a good approach. The worst thing that can happen is you get a "no".