Unexpected chord in a song

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RockerRocker Frets: 4942
A friend and I have been learning a song, I consider the song to be in the key of C as the chords used are C, F & G.  The song centres on C, which is why I think it is in the key of C, but there is a B flat chord in the song, a chord that crops up every few lines in the song.

Can someone please explain why this is so, why a chord that is not part of the song key can be so effective.  I sometimes hear and play major chords in songs, when the song key suggests 'should' be minor.  But this song goes beyond that as it includes a chord the 'shouldn't' be there.  I know that music is music and that rules are there to be broken and all that, but this is puzzling me as I like to have some idea why these 'out of key' chords work so well.  Thanks in anticipation.
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  • someone will be along no doubt to explain "Borrowed Chords" far better than I could..
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10356
    Most popular rock \ blues etc songs use a flat 7 chord … because it sounds cool. That's it really. :)

    Knowing the chords and notes  within a key is really useful but you also have to realize music theory is theory, not fact when it comes to what sounds cool. 

    But still learn theory, I would be a much better player if I knew 20 years ago what I know now
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited November 2020
    Danny1969 said:
    Most popular rock \ blues etc songs use a flat 7 chord … because it sounds cool. That's it really.


    Yep. 


    Out of interest, is the G a normal G (or G7) chord?

    Or is it a G minor chord?
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    Does the Bb resolve to C?

    As @bloodandtears says this Bb can be seen as a borrowed chord - so a chord from a closely related key. Let’s find where we might have a Bb and C type chord in the same key. Obvious places to start would be the parallel minor,

    Cm Ddim Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb

    Another place to look would be the key of F,

    F Gm Am Bb C Dm Edim

    So Bb is the vii in Cm and the IV in F, (where C is the V). 

    Another way is the think of it as a ‘backdoor’ cadence or progression. So G - C (V - I) is the ‘front door’, Bb - C (bVII - I) is the backdoor. So why does this work? Let’s look at the notes of the chords,

    G        C
    B        E
    D        G

    There is a leading note in the G chord (B) that wants to move UP a semitone to the Root of C. 

    Bb       C
    D         E
    F         G

    If we compare that with the Bb chord, there is another semitone movement that wants satisfying - F DOWN a semitone to E. If you were to play a C chord and play the note B, you’ll hear that want to move up. If you played an F note, your ear would want that to move down as it wouldn’t feel settled. 

    Now without going into too much depth, the 3rd and 5th notes of our Bb chord (D and F) are also the 5th and 7th of G7 which gives us a V - I movement. So if your song, more often than not, resolved from Bb to C, it’ll be a substitution for the G chord. 

    So even though Bb isn’t in the key of C, they are related in other ways and that’s why it works, if that makes sense?
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  • The sequence of chords may well clarify why it's there. Also, remember your B flat might be an A Sharp. What's the chord sequence particularly in the line where this chord is present?
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  • kelpbedskelpbeds Frets: 181
    Could well be a backdoor dominant

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backdoor_progression
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4942
    The song in question is The Contender, written by Jimmy MacCarthy.and performed by Dan McCabe on this video: 

    As I hear it, he plays and sings the song in the key of E.  But at one stage he plays or I think he plays the chord of D.  My friend plays it like Dan McCabe who uses a Capo on fret #2 and plays D key shapes.  Hence he plays a C major chord.

    Thanks for your input guys, I was wondering about the usage of a chord from outside the key chords.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    No flat 7 chord in there. One thing he might be doing (though it’s hard to tell here with the washing machine going and the dog barking) is when he goes from the I chord to the IV chord (E to A), he may suddenly slip in a transitionary E7, in order to smoothen the transition from E to A. This is called a secondary dominant. Because it behaves like a V-I, whereas in fact it’s a Ib7 - IV. 

    That E7 would have a D in it, rather than the D# which is played throughout the majority of the song. 

    But there’s no actual D chord anywhere. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Did you ever finish your music theory book @viz
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Did you ever finish your music theory book @viz
    Yep - pm’d
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Paul_CPaul_C Frets: 7670

    If you fancy a proper challenge, try playing Amy Winehouse's Wake Up Alone (I used to play it on guitar for my ex-missus to sing).

    It has the following chords in it.

    A / G#7 / C#m / C / E maj 7 / F#m / F / D / G / G#dim7 / E7 / Bm / D# (or Eb) maj 7

    :)


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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4942
    @viz, I am not going to pretend that I understand your reply above.  I don't but the song alluded to is an Irish ballad and, while this might be a Celtic nations understanding of harmony, simple major and minor chords are used as they are deemed good enough.  And most folk groups use simple chords.  And as in all Irish ballads, the lyrics/story is the most important part, the backing much less so.

    Thanks again to you and to the other contributors to this question.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    edited November 2020
    Rocker said:
    The song in question is The Contender, written by Jimmy MacCarthy.and performed by Dan McCabe on this video: 

    As I hear it, he plays and sings the song in the key of E.  But at one stage he plays or I think he plays the chord of D.  My friend plays it like Dan McCabe who uses a Capo on fret #2 and plays D key shapes.  Hence he plays a C major chord.

    Thanks for your input guys, I was wondering about the usage of a chord from outside the key chords.
    The song you've linked above is Bright Blue Rose, not The Contender. In either case, Dan McCabe's arrangements don't have anything unusual at all going on. Both are completely diatonic.

    However... 

    I checked out a Jimmy MacCarthey version and that was in the key of G and there are a couple of 'unexpected chords' as you put it, in the second section of the tune - F and Dm.  
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited November 2020
    Rocker said:
    @viz, I am not going to pretend that I understand your reply above.  I don't but the song alluded to is an Irish ballad and, while this might be a Celtic nations understanding of harmony, simple major and minor chords are used as they are deemed good enough.  And most folk groups use simple chords.  And as in all Irish ballads, the lyrics/story is the most important part, the backing much less so.


    Yep I know, but you were specifically asking about the harmony and whether there was a D chord so I was racking my brains trying to work out what you might be hearing. But yes, sorry, guilty as charged for using advanced music theory language for folk

    The straight forward answer should have been: no, there’s no D chord. 

    Incidentally, playing an E7 on the way to an A when in the key of E is quite common in rudimentary music such as folk and blues. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    Rocker said:
    @viz, I am not going to pretend that I understand your reply above.  I don't but the song alluded to is an Irish ballad and, while this might be a Celtic nations understanding of harmony, simple major and minor chords are used as they are deemed good enough.  And most folk groups use simple chords.  And as in all Irish ballads, the lyrics/story is the most important part, the backing much less so.


    Yep I know, but you were specifically asking about the harmony and whether there was a D chord so I was racking my brains trying to work out what you might be hearing. But yes, sorry, guilty as charged for using advanced music theory language for folk

    The straight forward answer should have been: no, there’s no D chord. 

    Incidentally, playing an E7 on the way to an A when in the key of E is quite common in rudimentary music such as folk and blues. 

    This reminds me of Pearl Jam's Black
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  • CrankyCranky Frets: 2629
    viz said:
    No flat 7 chord in there. One thing he might be doing (though it’s hard to tell here with the washing machine going and the dog barking) is when he goes from the I chord to the IV chord (E to A), he may suddenly slip in a transitionary E7, in order to smoothen the transition from E to A. This is called a secondary dominant. Because it behaves like a V-I, whereas in fact it’s a Ib7 - IV. 

    That E7 would have a D in it, rather than the D# which is played throughout the majority of the song. 

    But there’s no actual D chord anywhere. 
    So is there a difference between calling this a "secondary dominant" vs calling it a "modal mixture", as in a temporary lapse into E mixolydian?
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited November 2020
    Cranky said:
    viz said:
    No flat 7 chord in there. One thing he might be doing (though it’s hard to tell here with the washing machine going and the dog barking) is when he goes from the I chord to the IV chord (E to A), he may suddenly slip in a transitionary E7, in order to smoothen the transition from E to A. This is called a secondary dominant. Because it behaves like a V-I, whereas in fact it’s a Ib7 - IV. 

    That E7 would have a D in it, rather than the D# which is played throughout the majority of the song. 

    But there’s no actual D chord anywhere. 
    So is there a difference between calling this a "secondary dominant" vs calling it a "modal mixture", as in a temporary lapse into E mixolydian?


    Yep; the flat 7 of E mixolydian does not specifically create a perfect cadence when the chord moves to the IV, because the E is firm and absolute as a root (I) chord, and the flat 7 is present anyway already. 

    Whereas in a Ib7-IV progression in major, you can almost hear the IV being treated in that instant as though it were a I, and the progression behaves like a temporary V7-I cadence. 

    (Edited for clarity)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Much as @viz says, The E7 can be viewed as a V substitution of A, which is a well recognised practice.
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4942
    Sorry guys for the wrong link. Having discussed this with my friend, it seems that chords such as this are common in folk music. 
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • Songs can only go so far with the three usual suspects so somebody decided to add a fourth major chord. They tried all the others at random and found that the bVII sounded best. 

    Then somebody wrote a thesis on why but never really got to the bottom of it.
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