Song Writing - writing less cheesy songs

thecolourbox

Hi all

Been under a lot of stress lately but the upside of this is that I feel like I've had a lot of music stuff wanting to come out. I've been planning for a while to try and write some new songs, using minimal instruments etc just to get the basic elements of the song decent before "covering them" in a more full way once they are good enough. I thought this might help with quantity and enable me then to get a pool of ideas together which could always be mixed and matched or developed or editted etc.

But also, what I wanted to try and do with this approach is to try and weed out the cheesiness I seem to create with my songs. I have quite a good musical memory for tunes (hence end up recycling a lot of things or combining several different elements of very different songs together without realising until it's finished) but that seems to result in quite cheesy "obvious" sounding songs. It's not just the lyrics because I tend to just use any old crap to start with to get the tune and chords down. But it always comes out quite corny and too "pleasant sounding", which is fine in moderation but the music I tend to actually like has more punch and attitude than this, and that's what I seem unable to write.

For example, I wrote this with a friend in mind who is in an acoustic+violin duo up in the north west, I thought I'd try and write for somebody else to see if that helped as I could then use this approach for myself by writing for a different version of me musically if that makes sense. Admittedly they are aimed at a more mature crowd and therefore whilst their music is lovely with nice arrangements etc it's not exactly cutting edge cool! But I thought i could try and use that kind of style to get writing. I've got three ideas but only got around to demoing one of them. And yes I know the lyrics are shit, but the music itself just feels so dull, lifeless, soulless, lacking in any kind of edge whatsoever, but sounds generally fine. Background music to youtube videos basically.

Oh and I've since counted at least four songs I've nicked from without intending to, bonus points if anybody can sport them as well



Any idea how I can try to make myself sound a bit cooler when writing? That's basically the TLDR version

Cheers

Cirrus

I always found the mood or vibe or whatever comes first, and the song idea comes out of that. So honestly, I'm not sure how to force something if you're not already feeling that way, does that make sense?

So you need to work out what "cooler" or "edgy" means to you, and try to start out from that place. That's how to make it authentic. And when it's authentic, it's not cheesy.

I liked the song.

LastMantra

I quite like the vibe. Imo you could add a little "grit" to the vocal. The guitar could be a bit fuller too but that's just things I would do personal, sounds good as it is.

thecolourbox

LastMantra said:

I quite like the vibe. Imo you could add a little "grit" to the vocal. The guitar could be a bit fuller too but that's just things I would do personal, sounds good as it is.

Thanks, I know the production is crap it was literally my mic & pickup straight into audacity just to share it with my mate (who isn't going to use it, but that's ok), hence the awful timing issues with adding my toddler's tambourine afterwards haha. My voice doesn't do grit sadly, that's probably some of the problem I guess as it just sounds too limp.

Cirrus said:

I always found the mood or vibe or whatever comes first, and the song idea comes out of that. So honestly, I'm not sure how to force something if you're not already feeling that way, does that make sense?

So you need to work out what "cooler" or "edgy" means to you, and try to start out from that place. That's how to make it authentic. And when it's authentic, it's not cheesy.

Yeah I know what you mean but I don't tend to come up with a vibe as such it tends to be a vague notion of chords in my head then I just hum it out to get a tune then take it from there*. Improvising with an instrument tends to lead to worse ideas than doing it purely with humming (very difficult to come up with piano accompaniments that don't sound like cruise ship jazz singer!)

Re second para, That's the trouble (as with most things) i don't know what it is that makes it that, hence I can't work towards it. But think you're probably onto something with the authenticity I guess rather than just stuff that sounds objectively inoffensive. I can't really work on that, my feelings are pretty bland and shallow haha so I can't really call on that.

*EDIT: that is why I tend to unintentionally plagiarise a lot though I think, because I'm actually hearing something I've heard alreay without necessarily realising, then adding tunes that already exist. The one above alone nicks stuff from Lumineers (Ho Hey), Laura Marling (Ghosts), James Bay (Let It Go) and Travis (Sad Song), and only one of those would I like to sound anything like.

Snags

I think that stands on its own merit, even if it's not what you're shooting for.

I totally get what you mean about wanting to write X but always ending up with Y. About 50% of the stuff I (try) to do is fairly rocky, but I don't have any rock edge to my voice, or to my delivery. Plus my voice is naturally quite low, which sits uncomfortably with whisky-soaked rock'n'roll belters. The other 50% is miserable acoustic bedsit stuff, which is a bit easier, but can be a touch relentless

In terms of cheese, I wouldn't worry about it. I like words, and used to stress about not being cliché, trying to be clever, use different imagery etc. Then I sat down and really, really listened to a lot of songs I liked, across genres, and that I knew were generally popular. Most (not all) of the lyrics are total arse, and a significant proportion don't even make sense. But somehow it all just fits the vibe of the song, so you don't notice. I'm trying to be a bit more relaxed about it these days.

LastMantra

You could add a touch of nice distortion for extra "grit". I don't mean full on guitar distortion, just a bit of pre-amp type warmth. 

thecolourbox

Snags said:

I think that stands on its own merit, even if it's not what you're shooting for.

I totally get what you mean about wanting to write X but always ending up with Y. About 50% of the stuff I (try) to do is fairly rocky, but I don't have any rock edge to my voice, or to my delivery. Plus my voice is naturally quite low, which sits uncomfortably with whisky-soaked rock'n'roll belters. The other 50% is miserable acoustic bedsit stuff, which is a bit easier, but can be a touch relentless

In terms of cheese, I wouldn't worry about it. I like words, and used to stress about not being cliché, trying to be clever, use different imagery etc. Then I sat down and really, really listened to a lot of songs I liked, across genres, and that I knew were generally popular. Most (not all) of the lyrics are total arse, and a significant proportion don't even make sense. But somehow it all just fits the vibe of the song, so you don't notice. I'm trying to be a bit more relaxed about it these days.

Yeah I'm too bothered about the lyrics as I know I can usually re-write them into something reasonably acceptable when I have the tune and stuff sorted - the fact this song is lyrically more developed than "the cat sat on the mat" is purely because it was to send to another human being It's the "bed wetter" John Lewis advert drivel style of the music itself I'm disappointed in really, I don't seem to be able to make any real tension in my tune writing so it's all too woolly. But I think it probably is just that I'm a bit bland personality and emotion-wise so that's probably it.

Somebody else has suggested I forget about working out tunes for now and just try to do some instrumental or backing tracks, and try to add stuff later. Seems an ok idea in theory but it's a pain in the ass typing out virtual drums and stuff so by the time I've got that working the mood has usually passed and fuming rage has replaced it

Snags

I strongly suspect you're being your own harshest critic.

Unless you were aiming for some kind of death metal meltdown, in which case, yeah, it's a bit polite

thecolourbox

Snags said:

I strongly suspect you're being your own harshest critic.

Unless you were aiming for some kind of death metal meltdown, in which case, yeah, it's a bit polite

It's not that I think it's shit it's just that it's representative of the kind of boring bed wetter cheesy songs I seem to be capable of coming up with, rather than being interesting or being something I can actually put any feeling behind. I've tried to narrow it down as much as possible but the only thing I can find that's common to the song writers I like is the passion behind what they are singing seems to give them more of an edge. Whereas my stuff is so dull I can't give enough to them to make them interesting

Rocker

My cents worth FWIIW, is to ask yourself: what are you trying to say in your song(s)?  Trying to write the lyrics at the same time as the melody is making everything more difficult and you end up taking the easy options (which you describe as cheesy). Get the song lyrics down first, then create a melody that set off the lyrics.  You can add or subtract words to fit the chosen melody later.

thecolourbox

Rocker said:

My cents worth FWIIW, is to ask yourself: what are you trying to say in your song(s)?  Trying to write the lyrics at the same time as the melody is making everything more difficult and you end up taking the easy options (which you describe as cheesy). Get the song lyrics down first, then create a melody that set off the lyrics.  You can add or subtract words to fit the chosen melody later.

Could be something to try I suppose. But I really am crap at lyrics, and at just writing stuff on a blank page kind of approach. Hence I tend to come up with tune ideas first but I accept that might be the problem and indeed why I'm choosing cheesy options and accidentally plagiarising every time. That said, if I accept that my approach so far is not really writing, then I've basically never written a song as they've all turned out to be re-writing of various other songs put together after a few listens, so I'm starting from even closer to ground zero than I thought before! Argh

Blueingreen

One technique I've found useful, especially if I haven't been writing stuff for a while (I go through phases) is to write stuff with ambitious or unusual chord structures.  What that does is give me the confidence that the stuff is original, because I don't know any songs with those chords.  Once I've managed to come up with a couple of ideas I think are good I seem to be able to start writing simpler stuff with more confidence that the ideas are mine and not sub-consciously nicked from something else.  No idea whether this would work for other people, but it works well for me.

BahHumbug

I *believe* that the catchiest/punchiest melodies tend to have quite a bit of arpeggio content - rather than going note to note in a scale all the time you get larger intervals and a wide pitch range, with high notes for emphasis. Unfortunately this makes great melodies hard to sing.

In your song, I think the verse melody starts well in that respect - it attracts attention, rather than being the dull thing that you are concerned about.  However, by the time it gets to the chorus line it has gone a bit flat, and I think this is leading to your concerns.  So my first suggestion is to think about redoing your chorus melody and perhaps editing the chorus lyrics to go with a new melody. While I’m writing this it occurs to me that whereas your verse melody has a bit of rhythm and high notes, the chorus is a bit monotonous in terms of notes and rhythm, so maybe think about giving it a shake up in both respects.

Lyrics are tough.  When I’ve tried to write songs, I find lyrics so difficult that if I haven’t got a theme then I don’t even start.  I tend to think there’s no point trying to write a melody if I don’t have something to sing about.  You say your lyrics are shit.  I would say that they don’t really say an awful lot and leave much of an impression, but they aren’t shit.  For more punch your lyrics don’t have to say much as a whole, but having some attention grabbing phrases or ideas is worth having.
A lyric writing approach that I found useful was to put the actual lyric bit off.  I would think of a theme and then brainstorm words and phrases related to that, without aiming towards lyrics yet, without filtering anything out, including the wild and wacky etc.  The results might actually lead me to modify the theme a bit, and lead the theme towards a narrative that I could start to form into lyrics.  At the end of it the original theme might be gone entirely, but I would have had some lyrics which satisfied me a little bit and which I felt could hold the listeners attention.

I think your guitar arrangement is pretty good.  There is a little melodic think going right at the beginning, which grabs the attention quite well.  If you are looking for more punch you could look for some more distinctive rhythm variation somewhere.  You’ve mainly got some straight finger picking, plus some chords strummed on the beat.  Can you introduce some more rhythmic interest in the guitar part, in the chorus, say?

Cirrus

I remember a bit of a breakthough with lyrics for me was that I only ever wrote about feelings, thoughts, basically intangible things.

One day I realised I never sing about places or try to paint a real picture.

And I realised that if you start including objects, real spaces etc in your songs, prosody becomes much easier. Because musical structures generate their own kind of 3d space, have their own relationships, and you can either mirror or contrast those with the actual semantic meaning of your words.

And in turn, once you understand the perceptual space your music exists in, you get a better understanding of where to place notes etc. So it works in both directions. It's a bit of synaesthesia I guess?

And... places have their own vibe. So if you get the place right, you can worry less about having to waste words describing how it feels to inhabit.

Anyway, crack on and write some tunes 

PolarityMan

Lyrics don't have to be *about* anything tbh as long as the word combinations are evocative enough. 

thecolourbox

PolarityMan said:

Lyrics don't have to be *about* anything tbh as long as the word combinations are evocative enough. 

No words aren't that hard to do it's the tune and chords I find boring