Dynamic on Acoustic GTR

thegummy

Was just reading a review of the Aston Stealth dynamic mic and how it has 4 voices it can switch between with one of them designed for acoustic guitar.

Apart from using a 57 when I only had that mic, I've barely even heard of using dynamic mics on acoustic guitars.

Anyone choose to use them over normal choices for this application? Are there some dynamic mics that sound significantly better than a 57 for it?

Stuckfast

Personally I also think the 57 can actually sound quite good on acoustic, but if you can find one, the old AKG D19 is a superb mic for acoustic guitar. You'll need lots of preamp gain though. AKG also made a mic called the D224 which is the best dynamic mic ever made and works well on pretty much anything. (But be careful if you buy one because many of them are broken.)

I often use dynamics for strummed parts. Because they have a limited transient response compared with condensers, you tend to get a smoother and less 'spiky' sound.

Winny_Pooh

They can work really well when you want a track that doesnt sound too spikey, as flat picked guitar can sound harsh with a condensor close mic'd. That's why many pros use ribbon mics (also a dynamic technically) on acoustic instruments, esp mandolin, piano and violin. John Jorgenson is quite particluar with vintage ribbons. I like an md421 on acoustic but an Audix i5 (or Beyer m201) would be a budget pick.

Cirrus

The acoustic guitar in Radiohead's "Fake Plastic Trees" was recorded with an SM57. There was a Neuman alongside it, but it gave up the ghost near the start of the keeper take so that was that. It's not uncommon, especially where the guitar's going to have to fit into a mix with several other things going on.

Acoustics have a very broad frequency response and can also have a large dynamic range, so picking a mic that naturally constrains both those things can be a pretty sensible choice.

WiresDreamDisasters

Two SM57's, in X/Y config. One pointed towards the soundhole, one pointed towards the 12th fret. Nice sound.

domforr

Has anyone had any experience using a stereo mic like the Rode NT4 to record acoustic instruments? I always double my takes so I was considering this as a simpler way of achieving a stereo take in the mix. 

Stuckfast

Yes I quite often record acoustic in stereo, either with two mics or a single-point stereo mic. It doesn't sound anything like double-tracking though. IMO it's only worth doing if the guitar is really the feature instrument in the mix.

domforr

Interesting, thanks. I generally pan whatever I'm recording (mandolin, cittern, acoustic guit) hard right and left, so I thought this might be a time saving solution. 

Stuckfast

If you're after a lifelike, natural presentation, a good way to do that is to set up a single stereo pair and pan the instruments "at source". So for example if you want the mandolin to appear on the left side, you'd position yourself at the edge of whatever the stereo recording angle is for the pair you're using. Then you could sit in the middle to do the acoustic and the vocal, and those would appear in the centre of the mix. 

But it's nothing like double-tracking. If you position the acoustic in the middle of the stereo capture it'll sound like a single acoustic guitar in the middle of the track.

thegummy

@Stuckfast took the words out of my mouth - it won't sound anything like a doubled part.

It is common to record acoustic guitars in "stereo" when not doubling it though; if it's more of a featured solo performance rather than part of a dense mix.

The reason I put "stereo" in quote marks is because, while it does give a 2-channel recording that can be panned and sound different on each speaker, it's not a realistic stereo image of an acoustic guitar since no one listens to a guitar performance with their nose just about touching the strings - we hear a guitar coming from one specific direction and it would be the reflection from the walls that would be stereo in real life.

domforr

Great advice - thank you. So essentially if it's a'supporting' or accompanying track you wouldn't use a stereo mic, but you might consider it where an instrument is supposed to stand out or shine at some point in the song (i.e. solo, lead melody line etc). Apologies if I'm hijacking this thread.

thegummy

domforr said:

Great advice - thank you. So essentially if it's a'supporting' or accompanying track you wouldn't use a stereo mic, but you might consider it where an instrument is supposed to stand out or shine at some point in the song (i.e. solo, lead melody line etc). Apologies if I'm hijacking this thread.

You're more than welcome to hijack it

Another common thing is to mic it with two mics (or one stereo mic) so one captures more of the body and the other more of the fretboard then mixing them to taste to get the tone wanted but panning them both to the same place rather than on either side.

Personally I avoid multi-micing anything as much as possible due to phase issues but I think it's more common for people to embrace multi-micing.

domforr

The phase issue was why I've avoided using multiple mics and also why I was thinking the Rode Nt4 could be a useful and easy to use tool.

thegummy

domforr said:

The phase issue was why I've avoided using multiple mics and also why I was thinking the Rode Nt4 could be a useful and easy to use tool.

A stereo microphone is literally just 2 microphones joined together by the casing by the manufacturer - it's no different regarding phase issues as 2 separate microphones lined up as closely.

The closer the mics are together, the better chance of not having phase problems but just pointing this out in case you thought maybe a stereo mic was different to using 2 separate ones.

Without going on too much of a tangent, I've become more concerned with phase recently. I've stopped using bass recordings that have a DI and an amp or a DI together with an amp sim. There are plugins that can fight against phase issues to good effect but I find with how easy it is to get a good bass sound from a single DI track that I wonder why people even bother with bass amps (and their impracticality as well as phase thing).

Cirrus

I think with phase issues, it's fine to be aware of them but don't discount techniques that induce them - after all, they're only phase "issues" if they actually cause problems; otherwise they're just phase relationships, and our every day world is chock full of those.

There are great sounding non-coincident stereo mic techniques that use phase differences as much as amplitude differences caused by polar patterns and distance to help localise sound, for example. And there are guitar tones on record where you can clearly hear comb filtering, yet it sounds great - it just becomes part of the character of the production (Deftones earlier stuff springs to mind)

Sorry for pulling the thread a bit away from acoustic guitar recording there 

I've quite often used an RE20 or SM7b on acoustic, I consider them to be as high quality as a c414 or the at4050s I've also sometimes used - it's just a question of how you want to present the instrument. 

thegummy

Cirrus said:

I think with phase issues, it's fine to be aware of them but don't discount techniques that induce them - after all, they're only phase "issues" if they actually cause problems; otherwise they're just phase relationships, and our every day world is chock full of those.

There are great sounding non-coincident stereo mic techniques that use phase differences as much as amplitude differences caused by polar patterns and distance to help localise sound, for example. And there are guitar tones on record where you can clearly hear comb filtering, yet it sounds great - it just becomes part of the character of the production (Deftones earlier stuff springs to mind)

Sorry for pulling the thread a bit away from acoustic guitar recording there 

I've quite often used an RE20 or SM7b on acoustic, I consider them to be as high quality as a c414 or the at4050s I've also sometimes used - it's just a question of how you want to present the instrument. 

If there was a sound I really wanted that required multiple mics I wouldn't stay strictly against it, I just prefer to stay away from it when there are other ways to get a sound I like.

I agree that when other people do it, there are many examples of it sounding good. Just my own thing. With the bass, I don't think bass amps particularly add anything anyway so it's a no brainer there.

Just a note on this topic that I found surprising - in the Amplitube plugin, there's a setting where you can mix in some of the DI signal with the simulated cab sounds. When this is done the two signals are out of phase just like they are in a real recording. For some reason I thought they'd have internally corrected that for the slider.

Stuckfast

You shouldn't get phase problems with coincident stereo techniques (which includes any single-point stereo mic). But there is a question as to whether they really add all that much to close-miked instruments, either.

I did get a nice acoustic sound once with a stereo mic positioned so that it lined up with the strings, one capsule looking down at the treble side and the other up at the bass side. It wasn't especially 'stereo' though.

For a more spacious acoustic sound you'd probably want something like a pair of spaced omnis, which can sound magical in the right room.

domforr

After reading this thread I'm definitely veering away from purchasing a Rode NT4 - which was my intention a few days back. So thank you for saving me several hundred pounds!

thegummy

domforr said:

After reading this thread I'm definitely veering away from purchasing a Rode NT4 - which was my intention a few days back. So thank you for saving me several hundred pounds!

Aye there is some good stuff in this thread from Stuckfast as well as what I've said; I personally think you've made the right decision not to get it.

Just to add to what Stuckfast has been saying about recording in stereo with far-micing - I'd say in general a record that would benefit from the double tracked, hard panned doubled close-miked acoustics would probably not benefit from a far miced "stereo at the source in the room" approach and vice versa. That would probably be more suited to genres where realism is the goal like classical, probably jazz, maybe some traditional folk etc. Whereas pop/rock songs that aren't at all concerned with realism are just focussed on what sounds good; e.g. the panned guitar doubles.

Just out of interest - what mic do you use at the moment to record acoustics?

domforr

I'm currently using either a Line Audio CM3 condenser, or a 3U audio warbler - although I tend to use this more for vocals. I've also tried a GAP Ribbon mic and a Miktek MK3000. The Miktek was great on vocals - I really regret selling that.

thegummy

domforr said:

I'm currently using either a Line Audio CM3 condenser, or a 3U audio warbler - although I tend to use this more for vocals. I've also tried a GAP Ribbon mic and a Miktek MK3000. The Miktek was great on vocals - I really regret selling that.

I've never actually heard of those first two.

If I had 400 quid to spend on a mic for acoustic guitar I'd spend 320 of it on a Warm Audio WA84 - it's a budget copy of one of the all time great mics for acoustic guitar.