How long is a bar?

Rocker

 I have a working knowledge of how chords are made up and notes in scales but have no idea of what 3/4 or 4/4 time actually means.  I have no knowledge of how long a bar lasts in music.  I have read up on this but somehow I fail to understand what has been written.  

I can play waltz time, 3/4, without thinking but what does the 3 part mean and ditto the 4.  I presume that 4/4 time means playing a max total of 4 notes or rests or a combination per bar.  It all gets back to how long a bar lasts.

Trying to plug gaps in my lack of music theory.  A major problem is not knowing exactly what I am looking for and what question(s) to ask.

Any help or or guidance will be very appreciated. Thanks.

John_A

4/4 means 4 crotchets in a bar, so a typical song in 4/4 would be counted in as "1 2 3 4", and that is a bar in 4/4/ time
3/4 means 3 crotchets in a bar, so a typical song in 3/4 would be counted in as "1 2 3 ", and that is a bar in 3/4 time

"I presume that 4/4 time means playing a max total of 4 notes or rests or a combination per bar.  It all gets back to how long a bar lasts."

Exactly

fretmeister

First in a 3 book series

https://www.basslinepublishing.com/product/the-bass-guitarists-guide-to-reading-music-beginner-level/

They are well written and easy to follow.

Well worth £10 of your hard earned.

mrkb

I don’t understand 6/8, why isn’t it 6/4 - it’s counted 1,2,3,4,5,6 not 1&2&3& . Can anyone help me understand that please?

Snags

Because it's twice 3/4

6/8 is because it's groupings of quavers not crotchets. So the underlying defining bit of time is an 8th note not a quarter note.

fretmeister

Snags said:

Because it's twice 3/4

6/8 is because it's groupings of quavers not crotchets. So the underlying defining bit of time is an 8th note not a quarter note.

Those triplets have to fit somehow!

viz

mrkb said:

I don’t understand 6/8, why isn’t it 6/4 - it’s counted 1,2,3,4,5,6 not 1&2&3& . Can anyone help me understand that please?

Because 1&2&3& is 3 beats in a bar. Like a waltz. That's 3/4.

But 6/8 is 2 beats in a bar, each divided into 3 triplets. Like 123,223. It’s called compound time. 

Jonathangus

Is it partly to do with the tempo of the song?  If you slow down a piece in 6/8 enough, does it just start to 'feel' like 3/4 instead?

ArchtopDave

Jonathangus said:

Is it partly to do with the tempo of the song?  If you slow down a piece in 6/8 enough, does it just start to 'feel' like 3/4 instead?

It should not do so. As @viz says, 6/8 is a compound time ( made up of two triplets). In 3/4, you have 3 beats of equal prominence, whereas in 6/8, the 1st and 4th beats are accented.  

Coldfingers

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/112738/#Comment_112738

Danny1969

I always thing of the pulse ... take the intro of Where the streets have no name. That to me is 6/8 rather than 3/4 but others hear it different

BahHumbug

One thing to try and think of with these sorts of questions, is that different beats in a bar get different emphasis.  For instance in 4/4 beat beat 1 is the strongest, beat 3 slightly weaker, beats 2 and 4 are weaker again.  In the case of rock music Beats 1 and 3 are usually done by bass drum, beats 2 and 4 by snare.  You might not necessarily agree that bass drum is stronger than snare, but hopefully you can see the principle of the difference in emphasis between 1, 3 and 2, 4.

If you try playing a riff or just strumming chords in 4/4 (without a drummer), what you should notice is that you naturally emphasise beat 1.  Most people do this without even notice, because bars and this emphasis of beats is a natural part of musicality in western music.

Similarly in 3/4, beat 1 is emphasised.

For folks like the OP, who don’t think they understand bars and beats, it’s useful to practice counting along with a few recorded songs.  Take a song you are familiar with, imagine the count-in, then put the recording on and try to count through a verse and a chorus.

BahHumbug

I’ve always struggled with the difference between 3/4 and 6/8.  I can usually recognise them, but it’s difficult to define/describe the difference.
Obviously 3/4 is typically described as waltz time, which implies an oom-pah-pah feel.  A good example of a 6/8 tune which is noticeably not 3/4 is the Archers theme tune.  This really has the feel of a shuffle.  This common to lots of folky tunes.
The problem I find is there are plenty of examples in the middle ground where it’s difficult to distinguish 3/4 from 6/8.

EricTheWeary

One of the many arguments with Dave The Ska Nazi ( keyboardist in an old band) was that he had a very poor idea of what a bar was. He was self taught and applied musical terms as he saw fit and as he was hard as nails there was no point arguing. So when he said ‘ this needs four bars of...’ we had to guess what he was actually referring to. 

Although a bar is quite a difficult concept to explain simply, especially to an angry skinhead. 

BahHumbug said:

One thing to try and think of with these sorts of questions, is that different beats in a bar get different emphasis.  For instance in 4/4 beat beat 1 is the strongest, beat 3 slightly weaker, beats 2 and 4 are weaker again.  In the case of rock music Beats 1 and 3 are usually done by bass drum, beats 2 and 4 by snare.  You might not necessarily agree that bass drum is stronger than snare, but hopefully you can see the principle of the difference in emphasis between 1, 3 and 2, 4.

If you try playing a riff or just strumming chords in 4/4 (without a drummer), what you should notice is that you naturally emphasise beat 1.  Most people do this without even notice, because bars and this emphasis of beats is a natural part of musicality in western music.

Similarly in 3/4, beat 1 is emphasised.

For folks like the OP, who don’t think they understand bars and beats, it’s useful to practice counting along with a few recorded songs.  Take a song you are familiar with, imagine the count-in, then put the recording on and try to count through a verse and a chorus.

I think that’s really helpful. Puts me in mind of artists like James Brown where the count is POW 2 3 4 POW 2 3 4...on something like Sex Machine, you can hear the bass in particular always hitting it on the 1. 

https://youtu.be/1UzZUfFUnxY

Rocker

OK guys but how long is a bar in music?  Is it one second, two or more?  I understand the concept of counting but simply want to how long does a bar last?  And why is a waltz said to be 3/4 time?  Is it simply that three beats are played in the same time that four beats are played in a 4/4 song or tune?

Thanks for your suggestion @Fretmeister but I have 'enough' music theory books to last a lifetime, it is this small element that I can't get my head around.  I can read music very very slowly but unless I hear it played properly, I have no idea how it should sound.

Can anyone point me to a website that give examples of 4/4 and 3/4 time?

Thanks.

fretmeister

Lots of examples on youtube - this should bring up a few.





loads on there.


The notes can be identical. Same order, same length, same pitch. But it's the pulse of the music that makes it sound different. In other words - where is the "1"?

Imagine it almost as the difference between a shout and just talking

ONE two three four ONE two three four

ONE two three ONE two three

In the Simple time signatures it's all about the "1" - land on it properly and it will give you right pulse.


There are examples on youtube with the same song played in different time signatures too - worth a listen so you can feel the different pulse.

roberty

EricTheWeary said:

One of the many arguments with Dave The Ska Nazi ( keyboardist in an old band) was that he had a very poor idea of what a bar was. He was self taught and applied musical terms as he saw fit and as he was hard as nails there was no point arguing. So when he said ‘ this needs four bars of...’ we had to guess what he was actually referring to. 

Although a bar is quite a difficult concept to explain simply, especially to an angry skinhead. 

I am cackling at this story

EricTheWeary

Rocker said:

OK guys but how long is a bar in music?  Is it one second, two or more?  I understand the concept of counting but simply want to how long does a bar last?  And why is a waltz said to be 3/4 time?  Is it simply that three beats are played in the same time that four beats are played in a 4/4 song or tune?

Thanks for your suggestion @Fretmeister but I have 'enough' music theory books to last a lifetime, it is this small element that I can't get my head around.  I can read music very very slowly but unless I hear it played properly, I have no idea how it should sound.

Can anyone point me to a website that give examples of 4/4 and 3/4 time?

Thanks.

How long it lasts depends on how quickly you play it. Play any song you know on guitar, then play it faster or slower. Still the same number of beats and bars.

digitalkettle

Rocker said:

OK guys but how long is a bar in music?  Is it one second, two or more?  I understand the concept of counting but simply want to how long does a bar last?  And why is a waltz said to be 3/4 time?  Is it simply that three beats are played in the same time that four beats are played in a 4/4 song or tune?

If the tempo is given in quarter notes (as it most often is) at 120bpm:

• one bar of 3/4 (three quarter notes) has a duration of 1.5 seconds
• one bar of 4/4 (four quarter notes) has a duration of 2 seconds

Jalapeno

EricTheWeary said:

Rocker said:

OK guys but how long is a bar in music?  Is it one second, two or more?  I understand the concept of counting but simply want to how long does a bar last?  And why is a waltz said to be 3/4 time?  Is it simply that three beats are played in the same time that four beats are played in a 4/4 song or tune?

Thanks for your suggestion @Fretmeister but I have 'enough' music theory books to last a lifetime, it is this small element that I can't get my head around.  I can read music very very slowly but unless I hear it played properly, I have no idea how it should sound.

Can anyone point me to a website that give examples of 4/4 and 3/4 time?

Thanks.

How long it lasts depends on how quickly you play it. Play any song you know on guitar, then play it faster or slower. Still the same number of beats and bars.

Depends on tempo or alternatively bpm - beats per minute

Rocker

Thanks @Fretmeister, your response explains everything.