I can't get my head around 7/4 timing

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  • vizviz Frets: 8002
    I love the beginning of The Mirror by Dream Theater:



    Anything that isn’t pentatonic is pretentious wank -  LastMantra
    more on the strength of my ability to own a PA than to play a guitar” - ICBM
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  • KDSKDS Frets: 160
    I get 7/4 no problem, I count it 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 for Money.... but what does the 4 mean?  I realise it is something to do with the rhythm but I can never get my head round what it actually means  
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  • vizviz Frets: 8002
    edited January 12
    KDS said:
    I get 7/4 no problem, I count it 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 for Money.... but what does the 4 mean?  I realise it is something to do with the rhythm but I can never get my head round what it actually means  
    4 means crotchets, which are originally a quarter of a bar (also called quarter beats) if the bar were to contain 4 of them. In 3/4, 7/4, etc, the 4 at the bottom still refers to crotchets, even though there are 3 or 7 of them or whatever.
    Anything that isn’t pentatonic is pretentious wank -  LastMantra
    more on the strength of my ability to own a PA than to play a guitar” - ICBM
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  • KDSKDS Frets: 160
    viz said:
    KDS said:
    I get 7/4 no problem, I count it 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 for Money.... but what does the 4 mean?  I realise it is something to do with the rhythm but I can never get my head round what it actually means  
    4 means crotchets, which are originally a quarter of a bar (also called quarter beats) if the bar were to contain 4 of them. In 3/4, 7/4, etc, the 4 at the bottom still refers to crotchets, even though there are 3 or 7 of them or whatever.
    ok I feel stupid for asking this, if the number and n is a crotchet, 4/4 it would be 1 n n n 2 n n n 3 n n n 4 n n n? And say 4/3 (in theory for my understanding) 1 n n 2 n n 3 n n 4 n n...... which is describing shuffle such as dust my broom?
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  • blobbblobb Frets: 1688
    Think of a drummer and a hi-hat, or a pencil on a table if you prefer.

    1,2,3,4 = 4/4
    1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and = 4/8
    1 ee-and-uh, 2 ee-and-uh etc.... = 4/16 (usual to double stick for this one)

    So, these are quarter, eighth & sixteenth notes.

    The bottom number tells you quarter, eighth or sixteenth and the top number tells you how many of the selected type of note are in the bar.

    So, 19/16 would be 1 ee-and-uh, 2 ee-and uh ....... 19 ee-and-uh, 1ee-and-uh, 2ee-and-uh ............
    3/4 is 1,2,3,1,2,3.....
    5/8 is 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 1 and 2 and 3 and......

    For the above song, 7/4, would be 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. Count it as you hum the riff. You can break the seven count up into easier to handle sections so 1234,123, 2234,223, 3234,323,4234,423.......


    Feelin' Reelin' & Squeelin'
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  • vizviz Frets: 8002
    edited January 12
    KDS said:
    viz said:
    KDS said:
    I get 7/4 no problem, I count it 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 for Money.... but what does the 4 mean?  I realise it is something to do with the rhythm but I can never get my head round what it actually means  
    4 means crotchets, which are originally a quarter of a bar (also called quarter beats) if the bar were to contain 4 of them. In 3/4, 7/4, etc, the 4 at the bottom still refers to crotchets, even though there are 3 or 7 of them or whatever.
    ok I feel stupid for asking this, if the number and n is a crotchet, 4/4 it would be 1 n n n 2 n n n 3 n n n 4 n n n? And say 4/3 (in theory for my understanding) 1 n n 2 n n 3 n n 4 n n...... which is describing shuffle such as dust my broom?

    Yes to the first bit, but no to the bit about shuffle. There’s not ever a 3 on the bottom, because there’s no note duration described by a 3. 

    Note durations for time signatures are either minims, crotchets, quavers (half-notes, quarter-notes or eighth-notes). 

    They don’t actually have to be a quarter of something, which is why I just call them minims, crotchets and quavers. But they denote the 2, 4 or 8 at the bottom of the signature. 

    Back in black is 4/4 because it has 4 crotchets in a bar. 

    A shuffle is 4/4 or 2/4 (depending on whether you hear the main beat starting every two beats or 4 beats). But the rhythm inside each bar (the dum-di, or dum-di-dum-di) is actually “dotted”, so in 2/4 the 2 is made up of 1.5 + 0.5.   One-and-a-half crotchets, plus a quaver. 

    And in 4/4 shuffle the 4 is made up of 1.5 + 0.5 + 1.5 + 0.5. 

    A shuffle could basically just about be scored as 6/8, which would sound very much like dum-di-dum-di, but would be 2+1+2+1 quavers. Which is almost the same as 1.5 + 0.5 + 1.5 + 0.5 crotchets. The ratios aren’t quite the same but they sound similar. 

    Anything that isn’t pentatonic is pretentious wank -  LastMantra
    more on the strength of my ability to own a PA than to play a guitar” - ICBM
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  • fretmeisterfretmeister Frets: 15536
    The easiest solution by far is to not play Pink Floyd tunes because they are all awful.
    Humans will swim in the sea even though there are many corpses in it.  They will not swim in a pool with a corpse in it. 
    Therefore all humans have a water / corpse ratio that is acceptable to them.
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  • HootsmonHootsmon Frets: 13990
    On a piece of paper draw a pyramid shape with just 3 dots

    now draw a square with just 4 dots

    Put PF money on  and when the song starts touch the pyramid dots (3x) in time with the music  then start touching the square dots (4x) in time, and one at a time of course, and it will all fall into place...try it!
    tae be or not tae be
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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 2587
    The easiest solution by far is to not play Pink Floyd tunes because they are all awful.
    Well it's a reason, but it's not true! :-) 
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  • HAL9000HAL9000 Frets: 7146
    edited January 16
    Hootsmon said:
    On a piece of paper draw a pyramid shape with just 3 dots

    now draw a square with just 4 dots

    Put PF money on  and when the song starts touch the pyramid dots (3x) in time with the music  then start touching the square dots (4x) in time, and one at a time of course, and it will all fall into place...try it!
    I'm impressed. Very effective. I've always been able to play the riff but was an abject failure if I tried to sing over it. However if I picture myself pointing at the square and pyramid as you describe then the singing falls into place. Thanks.
    I play guitar because I enjoy it rather than because I’m any good at it
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2637

    My understand of 7/4 time signature, is that you should count it depending on where the accents are, and thus need to split the count up to reflect this

    For example in 4/4 the accents on the bass are often on beats 1 & 3 

    In 7/4 you may find it better to count it 1-2-3 / 1-2-3-4 or 1-2-3-4 / 1-2-3 depending on where the accents are. 


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  • vizviz Frets: 8002
    yup
    Anything that isn’t pentatonic is pretentious wank -  LastMantra
    more on the strength of my ability to own a PA than to play a guitar” - ICBM
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  • BezzerBezzer Frets: 462
    edited January 25
    I count it as "Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ki Da" now .... but I have spent most of lockdown on Mattias Eklundh's YouTube channel ...
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  • stratcatstratcat Frets: 47
    Money's a 3 and two 2's i.e. 123 467
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  • stratcatstratcat Frets: 47
    Money's a 3 and two 2's i.e. 123 467
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  • vizviz Frets: 8002
    edited January 26
    I think it’s a 4 and a 3 lol (or two 2s and a 3)
    Anything that isn’t pentatonic is pretentious wank -  LastMantra
    more on the strength of my ability to own a PA than to play a guitar” - ICBM
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2637
    Fight!
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  • vizviz Frets: 8002
    jpfamps said:
    Fight!


    I was in the right, yes, absolutely in the right. I certainly was in the right. That geezer is cruising for a bruising.
    Anything that isn’t pentatonic is pretentious wank -  LastMantra
    more on the strength of my ability to own a PA than to play a guitar” - ICBM
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  • stratologystratology Frets: 180
    edited January 28
    Odd meters are combinations of 2s and 3s.


    There are two ways to play 5/4:

    12-123 (2+3)
    123-12 (3+2)

    There are three ways to play 7/4:

    12-12-123 (2+2+3)
    12-123-12 (2+3+2)
    123-12-12 (3+2+2)


    In terms of phrasing, emphasis/accent is always on the 1.

    If you play uninterrupted quarter notes, 12 is downstroke-upstroke with the pick, 123 is downstroke-upstroke-downstroke.


    So playing the 2+2+3 variation of 7/4 goes: down-up-down-up-down-up-down---down-up-down-up-down-up-down---down-up-down-up-down-up-down---... 




    'Take Five' uses the 3+2 variant of 5/4. So you never count it 12345, you count 123-12---123-12---123-12---...


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  • ChéChé Frets: 270
    Interestingly, with "Money" I find myself counting it along with accented notes of the bass. Bobbing your head on the beats in bold gives you a sense of the swing

    One, two, three, one, two, three, four

    The first beat starts with your head bobbing down and starts again with your head bobbing up, once it repeats you'll be bobbing your head down on the first beat again.
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