Practicing to Click

thegummy

I've heard some people say that practicing to a click (metronome) can be even better than practicing to a drum machine.

Does anyone think there's anything behind that theory?

If so, what is it about the click or about the drums that make the click better?

poopot

A click track or metronome is always in time....


drummers not so much

BahHumbug

Dunno.  I find that practicing with a drum machine can be easier, as you can program it to do a conventional 4/4 beat - bass on 1&3, snare on 2&4, hihat 16ths etc,  This makes it easier to practice pieces of music, cos you can hear the bars as it were.  On the other hand a simple click or metronome leaves you to feel or count your way through the bars yourself.  Hence with a click you are practicing the music and feeling the bars as well.

Brad

I'd say it depends on how much you want to suffer  

IMO practising to a click is more beneficial, but only when used effectively. A drum machine/loop is great, but there is always something there, supporting you. Ditto playing to a quarter note click.

Try this - play something, it can be a lick, a song or just going up and down a scale, but something you can play easily. You could even just clap in time with the metronome.

Set a tempo of say 120bpm.

Play to a drum loop at that tempo

Then play to a metronome at 120bpm. So far so good most probably?

Cut the metronome in half (60bpm) and play the thing you're doing at the original tempo. Doing so increases the space between the clicks creating more space and this will probably throw you off at first.

Cut the tempo again to 30bpm.

Then again to 15bpm.

The lower the bpm the more space, thus making it much harder to keep in time and not drift. It'll feel impossible at first, maybe even for a while but it's great when you get it.

thegummy

Brad said:

I'd say it depends on how much you want to suffer  

IMO practising to a click is more beneficial, but only when used effectively. A drum machine/loop is great, but there is always something there, supporting you. Ditto playing to a quarter note click.

Try this - play something, it can be a lick, a song or just going up and down a scale, but something you can play easily. You could even just clap in time with the metronome.

Set a tempo of say 120bpm.

Play to a drum loop at that tempo

Then play to a metronome at 120bpm. So far so good most probably?

Cut the metronome in half (60bpm) and play the thing you're doing at the original tempo. Doing so increases the space between the clicks creating more space and this will probably throw you off at first.

Cut the tempo again to 30bpm.

Then again to 15bpm.

The lower the bpm the more space, thus making it much harder to keep in time and not drift. It'll feel impossible at first, maybe even for a while but it's great when you get it.

I've done that before and it's definitely a good exercise and can be difficult to perfect.

I think it can be done equally with a drum machine as it can a metronome tough, right? I.e. Play the drum machine slower or every just delete parts of the pattern?

xscaramanga

Yeah, Brad's right. The reason a metronome is 'harder' is because it's (usually) only playing quarter notes, whereas most typical programmed drum beats are playing 8th notes. Otherwise there's nothing in it really, although a lot of people find it easier to groove with a snare sound on beats 2 and 4. 

thegummy

jonnyscaramanga said:

Yeah, Brad's right. The reason a metronome is 'harder' is because it's (usually) only playing quarter notes, whereas most typical programmed drum beats are playing 8th notes. Otherwise there's nothing in it really, although a lot of little find it easier to groove with a snare sound on beats 2 and 4. 

That makes sense.

I didn't think there could be an advantage but I have heard people, including some I respect, saying a metronome is advantageous.

I wonder if it's that they find quarter notes more advantageous - and are associating those with a metronome - than eighth notes - and are associating those with a drum beat.

Fuengi

Set a delay pedal to a four beat pattern and use your guitar to create a percussion beat into a looper. 

finest1

nowadays you don't have to choose either. so why not do both? i still prefer metronome clicks as i find it easier to concentrate. once you try that for a few weeks, by all means play with a drum track. either way, your playing will improve. you got some helpful tips above. lots of resources on youtube and online metronomes. i even have a metronome i downloaded free on my iphone. no excuses!

Brad

thegummy said:

I've done that before and it's definitely a good exercise and can be difficult to perfect.

I think it can be done equally with a drum machine as it can a metronome tough, right? I.e. Play the drum machine slower or every just delete parts of the pattern?

I'm not sure how beneficial having the drum machine slower would be really. I guess it'd depend on the groove, as there will still be 8th notes going on that would act as support for your playing. Removing the random bars of the pattern would be great though!

But for me that's where a metronome wins (in this instance at least). The space really forces focus and the ability to manipulate the beat placement and how that effects things is really fun.

Having the click on beats 2 and 4, the + of 2 and 4 as well as the + of 1 and 3. Or only on one beat in the bar, say the + of 4.

There is a great metronome app called Time Guru, where you can randomly mute the click to varying extents.  

Which reminds me, I should get back to it!    

thegummy

Brad said:

thegummy said:

I've done that before and it's definitely a good exercise and can be difficult to perfect.

I think it can be done equally with a drum machine as it can a metronome tough, right? I.e. Play the drum machine slower or every just delete parts of the pattern?

I'm not sure how beneficial having the drum machine slower would be really. I guess it'd depend on the groove, as there will still be 8th notes going on that would act as support for your playing. Removing the random bars of the pattern would be great though!

But for me that's where a metronome wins (in this instance at least). The space really forces focus and the ability to manipulate the beat placement and how that effects things is really fun.

Having the click on beats 2 and 4, the + of 2 and 4 as well as the + of 1 and 3. Or only on one beat in the bar, say the + of 4.

There is a great metronome app called Time Guru, where you can randomly mute the click to varying extents.  

Which reminds me, I should get back to it!    

I don't understand why you think a metronome going slower would be any different to a drum machine going slower?

smigeon

thegummy said:

Brad said:

thegummy said:

I've done that before and it's definitely a good exercise and can be difficult to perfect.

I think it can be done equally with a drum machine as it can a metronome tough, right? I.e. Play the drum machine slower or every just delete parts of the pattern?

I'm not sure how beneficial having the drum machine slower would be really. I guess it'd depend on the groove, as there will still be 8th notes going on that would act as support for your playing. Removing the random bars of the pattern would be great though!

But for me that's where a metronome wins (in this instance at least). The space really forces focus and the ability to manipulate the beat placement and how that effects things is really fun.

Having the click on beats 2 and 4, the + of 2 and 4 as well as the + of 1 and 3. Or only on one beat in the bar, say the + of 4.

There is a great metronome app called Time Guru, where you can randomly mute the click to varying extents.  

Which reminds me, I should get back to it!    

I don't understand why you think a metronome going slower would be any different to a drum machine going slower?

It would be, for example, if there was a ride cymbal playing 8 (or 16) notes per bar. Halving the speed of that would still be giving you 4 (or 8) cues per bar. Whereas halving a 4 beats-to-the-bar metronome would only give you 2 cues per bar.

thegummy

smigeon said:

thegummy said:

Brad said:

thegummy said:

I've done that before and it's definitely a good exercise and can be difficult to perfect.

I think it can be done equally with a drum machine as it can a metronome tough, right? I.e. Play the drum machine slower or every just delete parts of the pattern?

I'm not sure how beneficial having the drum machine slower would be really. I guess it'd depend on the groove, as there will still be 8th notes going on that would act as support for your playing. Removing the random bars of the pattern would be great though!

But for me that's where a metronome wins (in this instance at least). The space really forces focus and the ability to manipulate the beat placement and how that effects things is really fun.

Having the click on beats 2 and 4, the + of 2 and 4 as well as the + of 1 and 3. Or only on one beat in the bar, say the + of 4.

There is a great metronome app called Time Guru, where you can randomly mute the click to varying extents.  

Which reminds me, I should get back to it!    

I don't understand why you think a metronome going slower would be any different to a drum machine going slower?

It would be, for example, if there was a ride cymbal playing 8 (or 16) notes per bar. Halving the speed of that would still be giving you 4 (or 8) cues per bar. Whereas halving a 4 beats-to-the-bar metronome would only give you 2 cues per bar.

You would play them both having the same number of beats per bar.

Why would the drum machine start off with more?

smigeon

OK, let's say you have a metronome set to 60bpm and playing 4 clicks to the bar. And next to it you have a drum machine set at 60bpm, and the drum pattern happens to include a ride cymbal playing 1/16th notes...

The metronome gives you 4 cues per bar (4 clicks in each bar). But the drum machine gives you 16 cues per bar. So in that scenario, the drum machine is giving you more of a crutch to lean on.

thegummy

smigeon said:

OK, let's say you have a metronome set to 60bpm and playing 4 clicks to the bar. And next to it you have a drum machine set at 60bpm, and the drum pattern happens to include a ride cymbal playing 1/16th notes...

The metronome gives you 4 cues per bar (4 clicks in each bar). But the drum machine gives you 16 cues per bar. So in that scenario, the drum machine is giving you more of a crutch to lean on.

But if the drum machine happens to be playing quarter notes then it doesn't.

smigeon

thegummy said:

smigeon said:

OK, let's say you have a metronome set to 60bpm and playing 4 clicks to the bar. And next to it you have a drum machine set at 60bpm, and the drum pattern happens to include a ride cymbal playing 1/16th notes...

The metronome gives you 4 cues per bar (4 clicks in each bar). But the drum machine gives you 16 cues per bar. So in that scenario, the drum machine is giving you more of a crutch to lean on.

But if the drum machine happens to be playing quarter notes then it doesn't.

Clearly not. But I’d guess that most drum grooves have hits on more than just the 1 and/or the 2 and/or or the 3 and/or the 4 of each bar. And when they do, they are offering more support than a 1/4 note metronome. That’s all I’m saying.

thegummy

smigeon said:

thegummy said:

smigeon said:

OK, let's say you have a metronome set to 60bpm and playing 4 clicks to the bar. And next to it you have a drum machine set at 60bpm, and the drum pattern happens to include a ride cymbal playing 1/16th notes...

The metronome gives you 4 cues per bar (4 clicks in each bar). But the drum machine gives you 16 cues per bar. So in that scenario, the drum machine is giving you more of a crutch to lean on.

But if the drum machine happens to be playing quarter notes then it doesn't.

Clearly not. But I’d guess that most drum grooves have hits on more than just the 1 and/or the 2 and/or or the 3 and/or the 4 of each bar. And when they do, they are offering more support than a 1/4 note metronome. That’s all I’m saying.

Cool.

It seems to me that when those people are suggesting a metronome over a drum machine, they're thinking of the drum machine playing specific patterns they might be used to.

Really they're saying there's benefit to practicing to less supportive beats and overlooking that drum machines can do those just as well as a metronome.

Brad

If I've understood this correctly, what you're actually asking is why bother with a metronome when a drum machine could be set to serve the same purpose?  

thegummy

Brad said:

If I've understood this correctly, what you're actually asking is why bother with a metronome when a drum machine could be set to serve the same purpose?  

That's exactly it - I've heard people recommend a metronome over a drum machine but couldn't think what could be better about it.

From the responses here I think it's quite possible that those giving such advice may be associating drum machines with certain beats and not thinking that they can be set any way.

Really the valuable advice is to set whatever you use as a click to only sound on some of the beats, leaving you to count the rest in your head and be in time for when the next sounding one comes in.

The point mentioned above about having to count for yourself where each bar starts might be useful to some people, though personally that's not something I've ever had any trouble with at all, even when I first started playing.

Musicwolf

Even if the drum machine is playing with HH on the beat, Kick on 1 & 3, Snare on 2 & 4, then it's still going to feel less 'sterile' than just a click on each beat.

I wonder if there is some sort of puritanical thinking going on here that says “the more tedious it is the better it is for you”?  The most important thing is to practice to some sort of mechanical time keeper, drum machine. metronome, whatever.

Brad

thegummy said:

Brad said:

If I've understood this correctly, what you're actually asking is why bother with a metronome when a drum machine could be set to serve the same purpose?  

That's exactly it - I've heard people recommend a metronome over a drum machine but couldn't think what could be better about it.

From the responses here I think it's quite possible that those giving such advice may be associating drum machines with certain beats and not thinking that they can be set any way.

Really the valuable advice is to set whatever you use as a click to only sound on some of the beats, leaving you to count the rest in your head and be in time for when the next sounding one comes in.

The point mentioned above about having to count for yourself where each bar starts might be useful to some people, though personally that's not something I've ever had any trouble with at all, even when I first started playing.

Right I get you now! So was this a trick question all along?  I think if you’d asked that initially there would’ve been a different sent of replied

I disagree with your assertion that anyone here only associates drums machines only with certain beats or thinking that they can’t be be set any other way at all. 

Iguess where people (or me at least) recommend using a click as opposed to a drum machine is one of application. If you set your drum machine as a metronome well... you’re just using a metronome. Even if it’s an irritating voice...

https://youtu.be/Yh8PATuI_NU

Perhaps the term ‘developing your inner metronome’ should be changed to ‘developing your inner drum machine’ eh?  

Musicwolf said:

Even if the drum machine is playing with HH on the beat, Kick on 1 & 3, Snare on 2 & 4, then it's still going to feel less 'sterile' than just a click on each beat.

I wonder if there is some sort of puritanical thinking going on here that says “the more tedious it is the better it is for you”?  The most important thing is to practice to some sort of mechanical time keeper, drum machine. metronome, whatever.

No puritanical thinking on my part, and I don’t get that from anyone else here. Different strokes etc but I don’t find a click sterile at all. In fact give me a basic click over some drum machines any day of the week!