The rise of conspiracy theorists and entitlement culture

PC_Dave

Roland said:

Congratulations Emp on starting a worthwhile thread. 

Now that's a conspiracy if ever I heard one!

boogieman

My missus used to go walking every week with a bunch of friends. One of them has become a rabid antivaxxer since the first lockdown and has gradually alienated most of the people in the group, due to her constant arguing and insistence that she “knows the truth about covid and the vaccines”. 

We heard yesterday that her son has banned her from seeing her grandchildren because he’s so concerned that her extreme views and constant ranting will upset his children.  

She can’t back up any of her arguments,  scientifically or rationally, she just quotes things she’s seen on YouTube and other SM sources. She seemingly hasn’t got the will or intelligence to question or research things for herself. I suspect she has low self esteem and these conspiracy theories give her some sense of superiority because she “knows things” that others don’t, which seems to be a fairly common theme among these nutters. All very sad really. 

stratology

boogieman said:

... she “knows things” that others don’t..

That's one of the key points, IMHO.

Knowing things that 'others' (except the millions of other Facebook users who read the same nonsense) don't know makes the person feel special - which is actually quite human and understandable.

Conspiracy theories also provide simple explanations for things that are complex, and hard to understand - like the complexities of how epidemics spread, or how architects are not expected to reliably model what happens when a plane crashes into a building. Searching for simple explanations is also human and understandable.

Grumpyrocker

Yes it's a way of people telling themselves they are educated, or have specialist knowledge, without putting the effort of actually attaining real knowledge. 

Axe_meister

The problem is, a little bit of knowledge is always a dangerous thing. Knowing enough that you are confident that you don't know something is where expertiese starts (in my opinion).
We now have the worlds knowledge at our finger tips but don't yet have the tools to access/asses the knowledge in a meaningful and educated way.
I see that in my kids, they have no idea that what they learn at school is just scratching the depth of learning in any specific area. They feel they can educate me on something I have years of experience with, because they read something on the internet.
Our investment in education should be going up, I personally think GCSEs should now be at the age of 18 rather than 16 and shift everything along a couple of years. There is so much new knowledge to gain, but the fundamentals cannot be compressed away to nothing. The arts have suffered because of this as has physical education. What will be next, geography, history? I can even see maths being a victim, because we all have calculators now, no point in learning long division.
I feel fortunate I went into science and engineering, loved biology/chemistry at school. This gave me basic reasoning skills and enough knowledge to question bullshit when I see it, but I always check first.

I often hang my head in shame when I see people arguing online that masks don't work, because flu rates are down but covid is on the up, yet RO numbers have been talked about since the beginning of the pandemic. Add RO numbers and simple probablity (GSCE maths) and you can quickly work out why a mask works, e.g. RO becomes less than 1 for flu from a relatively low RO number in the first place but RO > 1 for covid because it starts from a higher base.

Grumpyrocker

One of the things I learned at school - perhaps the most important lesson - was how to learn. 

In the 80/90s we were taught about sources of information, primary, secondary etc. How to back up arguments with sources, what are good sources, what aren't. Evidence being important. 

And so approaching stuff I know nothing about I at least know how to find the information required, and which information is more trustworthy.

My parents and many of their peers never learned that kind of thing - leaving school at 14. My dad's main source of news now is The Sun. God help us. 

VimFuego

grumpyrocker raises some interesting talking points re average age of a tin foil hatter. IME (which is limited) it seems to be more confined to younger generations, i.e. people 60 or lower. I don't know any of my mums generation who are, say, vaccine averse. I know a lot of anti vaxxers in the 40 to 60 age range. It'd be interesting to see what other people's experience of the age of conspiracy nuts to be. 

boogieman

VimFuego said:

grumpyrocker raises some interesting talking points re average age of a tin foil hatter. IME (which is limited) it seems to be more confined to younger generations, i.e. people 60 or lower. I don't know any of my mums generation who are, say, vaccine averse. I know a lot of anti vaxxers in the 40 to 60 age range. It'd be interesting to see what other people's experience of the age of conspiracy nuts to be. 

The woman I mentioned in my earlier post is in her late 60s. I don’t know if that makes her unusual. 

rze99

It’s pretty distressing to find out that your friend that you have known for years and spent great times with and love turns out to believe and propagates weird shit. 

Thanks, social media.  

SPECTRUM001

The OP’s thread question talks about how can we stop people thinking their opinion is as valid as experts.

I felt that way about Brexit - why are the masses being asked their opinion on what is a very complex subject, and so much more than just ‘taking back control’.

So it makes me wonder - if the public were given the chance to vote on the death penalty, would they approve it ? 

Which is why we have governments - to recommend direction and decision. And worryingly, it feels to me that social media is creating an environment supposedly superior to government (a la Trump - who let’s face it, wasn’t an actual politician, interested in debate and policy. His views and iron reign really do merge into pseudo fascism).

When I was in my teens, I was quite interested in anarchy and a society led by ideals. I like the idea, but sadly feel that society just isn’t smart enough and does need to be governed.

VimFuego

SPECTRUM001 said:

The OP’s thread question talks about how can we stop people thinking their opinion is as valid as experts.

I felt that way about Brexit - why are the masses being asked their opinion on what is a very complex subject, and so much more than just ‘taking back control’.

So it makes me wonder - if the public were given the chance to vote on the death penalty, would they approve it ? 

Which is why we have governments - to recommend direction and decision. And worryingly, it feels to me that social media is creating an environment supposedly superior to government (a la Trump - who let’s face it, wasn’t an actual politician, interested in debate and policy. His views and iron reign really do merge into pseudo fascism).

When I was in my teens, I was quite interested in anarchy and a society led by ideals. I like the idea, but sadly feel that society just isn’t smart enough and does need to be governed.

It's depressing isn't it. I'm a basic liberal, I believe the smallest amount of government in any given situation is the best course, and that people don't need lots of control. But people seem to go out of the way and prove, with their behaviour, me wrong.

fob

SPECTRUM001 said:

I felt that way about Brexit - why are the masses being asked their opinion on what is a very complex subject, and so much more than just ‘taking back control’.

Which is why we have governments - to recommend direction and decision.

 I like the idea, but sadly feel that society just isn’t smart enough and does need to be governed.

Where do you think the 'government' comes from if not our society? (we can maybe exclude the notion that it's aliens/illuminati even in a conspiracy thread) We have a government that recommended precisely what we got. I can't help but feel there's a pretentiousness in wanting a free society but condemning it as unworthy when you don't get the decisions you personally want.

munckee

SPECTRUM001 said:

The OP’s thread question talks about how can we stop people thinking their opinion is as valid as experts.

I felt that way about Brexit - why are the masses being asked their opinion on what is a very complex subject, and so much more than just ‘taking back control’.

So it makes me wonder - if the public were given the chance to vote on the death penalty, would they approve it ? 

Which is why we have governments - to recommend direction and decision. And worryingly, it feels to me that social media is creating an environment supposedly superior to government (a la Trump - who let’s face it, wasn’t an actual politician, interested in debate and policy. His views and iron reign really do merge into pseudo fascism).

When I was in my teens, I was quite interested in anarchy and a society led by ideals. I like the idea, but sadly feel that society just isn’t smart enough and does need to be governed.

I’d say it is extremely likely the public would vote for the death penalty. 

Rowby1

One of the things I’ve discovered since all this Covid shenanigans kicked off is that some of my “friends” are really very thick and poorly educated.....and equally, I’m probably an intellectual snob. 

chrisj1602

SPECTRUM001 said:

The OP’s thread question talks about how can we stop people thinking their opinion is as valid as experts.

I felt that way about Brexit - why are the masses being asked their opinion on what is a very complex subject, and so much more than just ‘taking back control’.

So it makes me wonder - if the public were given the chance to vote on the death penalty, would they approve it ? 

Which is why we have governments - to recommend direction and decision. And worryingly, it feels to me that social media is creating an environment supposedly superior to government (a la Trump - who let’s face it, wasn’t an actual politician, interested in debate and policy. His views and iron reign really do merge into pseudo fascism).

When I was in my teens, I was quite interested in anarchy and a society led by ideals. I like the idea, but sadly feel that society just isn’t smart enough and does need to be governed.

Re: Brexit, I remember Ricky Gervais saying they should have taken “Do not drink” off Bleach bottles for a while before having the referendum.

Axe_meister

With today's technology it would be entirely possible to have a vote on any issue currently voted on by MPs.
As much as I dispise the current government, I am glad they are a buffer between me and "the people"
If we could vote on every issue, we'd have the death penalty, would pay zero tax, have a fully funded NHS, all earn millions of pounds, etc, etc.
And live in a bankrupt country, where a loaf of bread costs £1m , no NHS, no roads, no unemployment benefit, etc, etc.
Individuals are relatively intelligent, people are thick as pig shit.

SPECTRUM001

fob said:

SPECTRUM001 said:

I felt that way about Brexit - why are the masses being asked their opinion on what is a very complex subject, and so much more than just ‘taking back control’.

Which is why we have governments - to recommend direction and decision.

 I like the idea, but sadly feel that society just isn’t smart enough and does need to be governed.

Where do you think the 'government' comes from if not our society? (we can maybe exclude the notion that it's aliens/illuminati even in a conspiracy thread) We have a government that recommended precisely what we got. I can't help but feel there's a pretentiousness in wanting a free society but condemning it as unworthy when you don't get the decisions you personally want.

Yes I understand there is lineage from society to government, and I applaud those who work in government as it must be a complicated, demanding and draining vocation (morally and literally). 

When saying we have a government that recommended precisely what we got - do you mean Brexit ? 

With regard to ‘wanting a free society’, I am not quite sure of what you are saying. Certainly when I was younger I fantasised that we could have a world that was more led from ideals. But I really don’t think it is so easy, as we as human beings have far too much baggage and confusion - and therefore need guidance in the form of an elected and organised ‘system’ of government. I am however still very suspicious of politicians, as they are linked to power, which is so open to abuse.

I don’t think this is particularly revelatory or pretentious though - but this is me riffing thoughts rather than studied analysis. Perhaps idealism is pretentious ?

Kittyfrisk

chrisj1602 said:

SPECTRUM001 said:

The OP’s thread question talks about how can we stop people thinking their opinion is as valid as experts.

I felt that way about Brexit - why are the masses being asked their opinion on what is a very complex subject, and so much more than just ‘taking back control’.

So it makes me wonder - if the public were given the chance to vote on the death penalty, would they approve it ? 

Which is why we have governments - to recommend direction and decision. And worryingly, it feels to me that social media is creating an environment supposedly superior to government (a la Trump - who let’s face it, wasn’t an actual politician, interested in debate and policy. His views and iron reign really do merge into pseudo fascism).

When I was in my teens, I was quite interested in anarchy and a society led by ideals. I like the idea, but sadly feel that society just isn’t smart enough and does need to be governed.

Re: Brexit, I remember Ricky Gervais saying they should have taken “Do not drink” off Bleach bottles for a while before having the referendum.

Probably just as well they didn't remove the wording...

fob

I hope you'll forgive me quoting your previous post as the follow up seems to be asking for clarification.

SPECTRUM001 said:

The OP’s thread question talks about how can we stop people thinking their opinion is as valid as experts.

I felt that way about Brexit - why are the masses being asked their opinion on what is a very complex subject, and so much more than just ‘taking back control’.

I think it's a fair inference here to assume that you mean Brexit shouldn't have been put to a vote as the public wouldn't be able to deal with the complexities in the same way the goverment could. The problem is there were plenty in the goverment at the time who wanted Brexit (for whatever reason) as well. Our current prime minister wanted Brexit and fought for it.

SPECTRUM001 said:

 I like the idea, but sadly feel that society just isn’t smart enough and does need to be governed.

The society that isn't smart enough supplies those governors. Matt Hancock governs you. Matt Hancock governs all the people who aren't smart enough.

SPECTRUM001 said:

Which is why we have governments - to recommend direction and decision.

Is that why we have governments? Maybe. I'd prefer to think of them as admin for the voters they 'serve': carrying out the will of the people rather than imposing their will on the people.

WiresDreamDisasters

Politics is downstream from culture, and government is a result of civilisation, not a cause of it.