PRS Finish Query - USA Core models

guitars4you

Following a brief chat on this discussion https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/198487/something-new-from-prs-tonight-7pm-eastern-sea-board-time/p1 - I wanted to find out more about the mystery of the V12 finish on PRS USA models and when they stopped using it - After all, most/many web postings I see, from dealers in the UK, Germany, USA etc still list V12 as the finish on many new models - And I have done like wise on appropriate used models that I've listed on my web site

I was under the impression most models had the V12 finish from around 2010/11 until about now - Then I saw this new 'CAB Nitro' finish on the 2021 press release - A) I wanted to know what it is and Plus when did they start production with this new finish

Just had a reply from Shawn at PRS Customer services - here is his comment - Thank you for contacting PRS Guitars. V12 was used from 2010/11- 2013. It was a hybrid finish consisting of acrylic and nitro. In 2014 we went back to straight acrylic and in 2020 we switched to CAB Nitro

So at least it clarifies the situation, but just a thought as to why we had to have the mystery - I bet not many/any new that V12 was finished (sorry about the pun) in 2013

richardhomer

As I said in the other PRS thread, I too thought it was their ‘current’ finish. Much as I like Paul’s Tigger-like enthusiasm for new discoveries, it sounds like V12 must have been a returns nightmare for them. It would perhaps have been better to have been more open about going back to their earlier finish. 

ICBM

The marketing mirage of “nitro” might be responsible for that...

I can’t understand why they’ve gone to ‘nitro over acrylic’ at all - it’s the worst of both worlds, the easily damaged top coat of nitro over the “stopping the wood breathe” (if you believe that nonsense) undercoat of acrylic.

Just go back to finishing them as they have been for most of the last 35 years, they’ve always looked great.

SteveRobinson

guitars4you said:

Just had a reply from Shawn at PRS Customer services - here is his comment - Thank you for contacting PRS Guitars. V12 was used from 2010/11- 2013. It was a hybrid finish consisting of acrylic and nitro. In 2014 we went back to straight acrylic and in 2020 we switched to CAB Nitro

So at least it clarifies the situation, but just a thought as to why we had to have the mystery - I bet not many/any new that V12 was finished (sorry about the pun) in 2013

If only!

CAB (cellulose acetate butyrate) is not "nitro" as it contains no nitrate groups. "Nitro" is nitrocellulose (cellulose nitrate) which does. 

To me, it seelms like it's all just marketing hype to sell the latest guitars, the equivalent of Gibson's "most accurate ever reissue".

One thing  about CAB is that (unlike nitrocellulose) it can be damaged by alcohol so be careful what you clean it with.

guitars4you

SteveRobinson said:

guitars4you said:

Just had a reply from Shawn at PRS Customer services - here is his comment - Thank you for contacting PRS Guitars. V12 was used from 2010/11- 2013. It was a hybrid finish consisting of acrylic and nitro. In 2014 we went back to straight acrylic and in 2020 we switched to CAB Nitro

So at least it clarifies the situation, but just a thought as to why we had to have the mystery - I bet not many/any new that V12 was finished (sorry about the pun) in 2013

If only!

CAB (cellulose acetate butyrate) is not "nitro" as it contains no nitrate groups. "Nitro" is nitrocellulose (cellulose nitrate) which does. 

To me, it seelms like it's all just marketing hype to sell the latest guitars, the equivalent of Gibson's "most accurate ever reissue".

One thing  about CAB is that (unlike nitrocellulose) it can be damaged by alcohol so be careful what you clean it with.

I bow to your knowledge Steve both with regards to selling Nitro and your back ground in Chemistry - I had never heard of CAB in relation to any guitar based finished until this week  when I saw the new 2021 PRS line up and it was mentioned in the appropriate spec's - Paul has a reputation for creating a 'new term' as part of their marketing - So just assumed it was a new name for a new finish, in the way V12 was a decade earlier

However in the spec sheet is does state 'Nitro over CAB' - So like Fender have done on various models and indeed PRS have done so on the likes of the DGT, it does appear to be a 'blend/layer' of 2 forms of a finish

crunchman

ICBM said:

The marketing mirage of “nitro” might be responsible for that...

I can’t understand why they’ve gone to ‘nitro over acrylic’ at all - it’s the worst of both worlds, the easily damaged top coat of nitro over the “stopping the wood breathe” (if you believe that nonsense) undercoat of acrylic.

Just go back to finishing them as they have been for most of the last 35 years, they’ve always looked great.

They don't look great when they have been played a lot, and have some dings on them.  You tend to get an area around the ding where the finish has this white opaque look, where it almost looks like there is a bubble under the finish (not a great description, but it's difficult to put into words).

I've seen some well played (abused?) 20 year old PRS guitars that really do not look good.  Nitro does age a lot better.

SteveRobinson

guitars4you said:

However in the spec sheet is does state 'Nitro over CAB' - So like Fender have done on various models and indeed PRS have done so on the likes of the DGT, it does appear to be a 'blend/layer' of 2 forms of a finish

That would make sense. CAB base coat with a nitrocellulose top layer. 

Although CAB is generally tougher I think

ICBM

crunchman said:

They don't look great when they have been played a lot, and have some dings on them.  You tend to get an area around the ding where the finish has this white opaque look, where it almost looks like there is a bubble under the finish (not a great description, but it's difficult to put into words).

I've seen some well played (abused?) 20 year old PRS guitars that really do not look good.  Nitro does age a lot better.

Only if you want it to look shit quickly .

I gigged PRSs exclusively for about seven years, and it's true that they did pick up some minor dings and scrapes including a couple where they went white-ish around the dent, but they looked fine really. As long as you don't throw them around the finish actually lasts much better than nitro, which you have to be ridiculously careful with.

I hate the feel of nitro as well - the Swamp Ash Special I've got now has a nitro-finished maple neck, and it's forever feeling sticky and needing to be buffed.

Massive backwards step in my opinion.

crunchman

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

They don't look great when they have been played a lot, and have some dings on them.  You tend to get an area around the ding where the finish has this white opaque look, where it almost looks like there is a bubble under the finish (not a great description, but it's difficult to put into words).

I've seen some well played (abused?) 20 year old PRS guitars that really do not look good.  Nitro does age a lot better.

Only if you want it to look shit quickly .

I gigged PRSs exclusively for about seven years, and it's true that they did pick up some minor dings and scrapes including a couple where they went white-ish around the dent, but they looked fine really. As long as you don't throw them around the finish actually lasts much better than nitro, which you have to be ridiculously careful with.

I hate the feel of nitro as well - the Swamp Ash Special I've got now has a nitro-finished maple neck, and it's forever feeling sticky and needing to be buffed.

Massive backwards step in my opinion.

On all the nitro finished guitars I've had, the sticky feel goes after a few months - if it felt sticky to start with.

ICBM

crunchman said:

On all the nitro finished guitars I've had, the sticky feel goes after a few months - if it felt sticky to start with.

This is a 2004 guitar, and well used. It still has that horrible sticky feel even now.

So does my 2008 Gibson acoustic. My 1971 Martin doesn't really... but that's nearly 50 years old.

crunchman

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

On all the nitro finished guitars I've had, the sticky feel goes after a few months - if it felt sticky to start with.

This is a 2004 guitar, and well used. It still has that horrible sticky feel even now.

So does my 2008 Gibson acoustic. My 1971 Martin doesn't really... but that's nearly 50 years old.

I've had 7 new, or nearly new, nitro finished guitars over the years.  On all of them, it was a lot better within a few months, and gone by 18 months to 2 years.  Maybe my body chemistry is difference to yours.  I know I am a lot easier on strings than some people.

ICBM

crunchman said:

I've had 7 new, or nearly new, nitro finished guitars over the years.  On all of them, it was a lot better within a few months, and gone by 18 months to 2 years.  Maybe my body chemistry is difference to yours.  I know I am a lot easier on strings than some people.

So am I - I have very dry skin, and don't sweat a lot. I can easily get a couple of years out a set of strings usually. Still, the sticky thing really annoys me... I have to buff the neck every half hour or so when I'm playing it. It would definitely be a deal-breaker on any new guitar for me.

It's so frustrating that the guitar industry has this fascination for going back to the past, when far better solutions have been developed. Especially when it's perfectly possible to use modern finishes in ways that don't look very different from nitro - and even more so when nitro is used over them! Which is just ridiculous.

imalrightjack

Anybody know what this 2014 neck finish is likely to be? On an artist model. Feels oiled, at least it’s super smooth. 

ThePrettyDamned

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

I've had 7 new, or nearly new, nitro finished guitars over the years.  On all of them, it was a lot better within a few months, and gone by 18 months to 2 years.  Maybe my body chemistry is difference to yours.  I know I am a lot easier on strings than some people.

So am I - I have very dry skin, and don't sweat a lot. I can easily get a couple of years out a set of strings usually. Still, the sticky thing really annoys me... I have to buff the neck every half hour or so when I'm playing it. It would definitely be a deal-breaker on any new guitar for me.

It's so frustrating that the guitar industry has this fascination for going back to the past, when far better solutions have been developed. Especially when it's perfectly possible to use modern finishes in ways that don't look very different from nitro - and even more so when nitro is used over them! Which is just ridiculous.

I am all about either osmo matte or a nice satin poly finish on necks. Nothing better.