Preamp tubes do make a difference - now with audio clips!

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WiresDreamDisastersWiresDreamDisasters Frets: 16664
edited January 2021 in Amps
I just changed the first 4 preamp tubes in my VHT from the unbranded Chinese ones, plus a couple of Ruby's, to four JJ ECC83S (provided by @Modulus_Amps - thanks dude!) and the amp sounds much more lively and ballsy. The low end is bigger and there is more gain. 100% convinced of this, because I was playing the amp today and felt a little disappointment in the tone, and then thought to myself "I'll put those tubes in it that I just got" - and it's really made a big difference to the in the room sound of it.

Bye!

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Comments

  • merlinmerlin Frets: 6598
    Blimey, who'd a thunk it? New Preamp tubes making an amp sound better. 
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  • Changing V1 can make the most difference. 
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  • merlin said:
    Blimey, who'd a thunk it? New Preamp tubes making an amp sound better. 
    There was recently a bit of oopla about tubes not making any difference, with all sorts of blind tests and what not done by Glenn Fricker, and I was a bit skeptical of the notion to be honest, because I've experienced tube changes making quite a difference in the past with a JVM. That was the only one that I ever really paid a lot of attention to anyway.


    Bye!

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  • I just changed the first 4 preamp tubes in my VHT from the unbranded Chinese ones, plus a couple of Ruby's, to four JJ ECC83S (provided by @Modulus_Amps - thanks dude!) and the amp sounds much more lively and ballsy. The low end is bigger and there is more gain. 100% convinced of this, because I was playing the amp today and felt a little disappointment in the tone, and then thought to myself "I'll put those tubes in it that I just got" - and it's really made a big difference to the in the room sound of it.
    The question is...how much had the unbranded/Ruby ones been used?

    More gain and more low end definitely sounds like exactly the difference you'd expect going from old valves to new valves.
    <space for hire>
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    edited January 2021
    merlin said:
    Blimey, who'd a thunk it? New Preamp tubes making an amp sound better. 
    There was recently a bit of oopla about tubes not making any difference, with all sorts of blind tests and what not done by Glenn Fricker, and I was a bit skeptical of the notion to be honest, because I've experienced tube changes making quite a difference in the past with a JVM. That was the only one that I ever really paid a lot of attention to anyway.


    If you pay close attention to those kind of people, you eventually learn that nothing makes a difference at all - tubes, caps, resistors, transformers, wood type, magnet type... and everything sounds exactly the same except for how you play.

    Those people are, to a man, deaf idiots who want to remove from music all the joy that they could never feel anyway. =)
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  • I just changed the first 4 preamp tubes in my VHT from the unbranded Chinese ones, plus a couple of Ruby's, to four JJ ECC83S (provided by @Modulus_Amps - thanks dude!) and the amp sounds much more lively and ballsy. The low end is bigger and there is more gain. 100% convinced of this, because I was playing the amp today and felt a little disappointment in the tone, and then thought to myself "I'll put those tubes in it that I just got" - and it's really made a big difference to the in the room sound of it.
    The question is...how much had the unbranded/Ruby ones been used?

    More gain and more low end definitely sounds like exactly the difference you'd expect going from old valves to new valves.
    Yes I agree. And these valves were probably old. But it does disprove the notion that the tubes don't matter - they do. And there is such high variability in the tubes that you buy today, that feasibly you could buy a new set of tubes that are the same level of quality as "old tubes" and still end up with a cack sound.

    I would imagine anyway.

    Bye!

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    Changing V1 can make the most difference. 
    That depends on the amp circuit. In some, V1 isn't the first gain stage, and even if it is it doesn't always have the most effect on the sound.

    But they do definitely make a difference in most amps. Some are remarkably insensitive though...

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Modulus_AmpsModulus_Amps Frets: 2569
    tFB Trader
    hey thanks! had no idea I had shipped you tubes

    They do make a difference, even the difference in gain would make a big difference to how you hear the bass and mids.

    Saying that depends on what you want from the amp and which amp it is.

    I did a comparison with a JCM800 and the valves I thought I would hate were the ones I ended up prefering, they were less gainy but offered greater clarity
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  • VHT SigX. Tube layout:


    So I swapped out V1 - V4.

    Bye!

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  • WazmeisterWazmeister Frets: 9448
    Who would have thought it ?
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  • KeefyKeefy Frets: 2272
    My problem with comparing valves is that by the time I’ve pulled one, plugged in another, and waited for it to warm up, I’ve forgotten what the first one sounded like. Yes I could record a clip but that adds another layer of confusion!
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1591
    Keefy said:
    My problem with comparing valves is that by the time I’ve pulled one, plugged in another, and waited for it to warm up, I’ve forgotten what the first one sounded like. Yes I could record a clip but that adds another layer of confusion!

    Keefy said:
    My problem with comparing valves is that by the time I’ve pulled one, plugged in another, and waited for it to warm up, I’ve forgotten what the first one sounded like. Yes I could record a clip but that adds another layer of confusion!

    No, recording an A/B of the valve swap would not "add confusion". Just set things up in a systematic way. Have a mic at a fixed distance from the speaker and DO NOT JODRELL WITH ANY CONTROLS during both recordings. Record well low, -25dBfs . I have read dozens of these 'night an day valve differences' posts and the never include a recording.

    Some years ago I did something I bet few here have done? I built a 'hot' valve switcher. This allowed a good guitarist to instantly go from one brand of ECC83 to another whilst some very experienced ears harkened unto him. Yes, the two valve brand were slightly different but the conclusion was that it was too small to be significant (i.e. customers unlikely to notice and in fact they never did)

    Dave.
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    edited January 2021
    ecc83 said:

    No, recording an A/B of the valve swap would not "add confusion". Just set things up in a systematic way. Have a mic at a fixed distance from the speaker and DO NOT JODRELL WITH ANY CONTROLS during both recordings. Record well low, -25dBfs . I have read dozens of these 'night an day valve differences' posts and the never include a recording.

    Some years ago I did something I bet few here have done? I built a 'hot' valve switcher. This allowed a good guitarist to instantly go from one brand of ECC83 to another whilst some very experienced ears harkened unto him. Yes, the two valve brand were slightly different but the conclusion was that it was too small to be significant (i.e. customers unlikely to notice and in fact they never did)

    Dave.
    In what position and in what circuit though? I've had amps that didn't really care what valves were in them, and amps where the differences were clear. For example, if an amp is by its nature compressed in the low end and sounds like a blanket is over the speaker, changing preamp tubes might not make any audible difference at all. Context is key and, honestly, feel matters just as much as sound. A good guitarist hits their strings based on what they hear coming out the speaker - ie, they themselves are a variable.

    Honestly, it doesn't seem like the place for donning a scientist's uniform. In the realm of making a guitar tone, it doesn't matter until it's trying to do a particular job, and then all the little things that are making it easier or harder feel like big things to the one person that's going to sink or swim, the guitarist.
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  • I tell you what, I'll put the old tubes back in and make some recordings, and then put the new ones in and reamp the DI's and post the results. I'm reasonably sure that there will be a marked difference in both low-end and gain+saturation.

    Bye!

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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1591
    Hi Cirrus, there is Art and there is science (technology really) and I love both and you cannot have the former without the latter. However, when folks post a binary test and make unsupported claims it is of little use. As you say, amps differ in their sensitivity to valve changes* and so we really need the make and model and a fekkin recording!

    *As one who have changed thousands of valves in radios and especially TVs I cannot remember ever hearing or seeing any difference between a Mully ECC81 or a Brimar 12AT7 or a Marconiphone equive? Maybe modern valves are inconsistent shit?

    Dave.


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  • KeefyKeefy Frets: 2272
    ecc83 said:
    Keefy said:
    My problem with comparing valves is that by the time I’ve pulled one, plugged in another, and waited for it to warm up, I’ve forgotten what the first one sounded like. Yes I could record a clip but that adds another layer of confusion!
    No, recording an A/B of the valve swap would not "add confusion"...
    It would confuse me!
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  • thermionicthermionic Frets: 9499
    A few years ago I bought a handful of ECC83s from various manufacturers (JJ, Tung-Sol, Sovtek) to replace the unbranded valves in my Vox AC15 (1990s Marshall built). The valves were intentionally “different” (long plate versions etc) in the hope of hearing a difference between them. I swapped V1 (actually labelled V5) and the phase inverter, and was careful to not touch the controls between swaps. I couldn’t hear any difference and was disappointed. 

    Fast forward to a few weeks ago and I decided to swap the reverb driver valve in an attempt to improve the weak reverb. I replaced the unbranded one in the reverb with one of the newer ones, and ended up with a different one of the newer ones in V1. The reverb was no better but now the amp sounds much more like a Vox - noticably more chimey crunch on the master volume. Pleasantly surprised
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1591
    A few years ago I bought a handful of ECC83s from various manufacturers (JJ, Tung-Sol, Sovtek) to replace the unbranded valves in my Vox AC15 (1990s Marshall built). The valves were intentionally “different” (long plate versions etc) in the hope of hearing a difference between them. I swapped V1 (actually labelled V5) and the phase inverter, and was careful to not touch the controls between swaps. I couldn’t hear any difference and was disappointed. 

    Fast forward to a few weeks ago and I decided to swap the reverb driver valve in an attempt to improve the weak reverb. I replaced the unbranded one in the reverb with one of the newer ones, and ended up with a different one of the newer ones in V1. The reverb was no better but now the amp sounds much more like a Vox - noticably more chimey crunch on the master volume. Pleasantly surprised

    Well, if you replace an unknown valve with a known good one I would expect thereto be some changes in the sound in some circumstances. By definition, an unknown valve could be low in emission. What is often forgotten in all this bottle swapping is that the DC conditions might be changed but unless the 'swapper' does a voltage check, Vk and Va we can never know (they never do)
    For those of a non-technical bent, the 'biasing' of the valve might change and that can result in more, sometimes less distortion. The signal level at which the distortion starts to be noticeable could also change.

    The biggest change will occur when peeps change valve types, e.g. a 12AX7 for a 12AT7, biasing will go to ***t and in some cases anode loads burn out.

    Dave.
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  • springheadspringhead Frets: 1583
    I've swapped lots of valves in several of my amps and heard a difference.  And these are known good new production and NOS ones that I've just measured for emission and gm.  Depends on the circuit and position but they do vary. 
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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 9098
    I tell you what, I'll put the old tubes back in and make some recordings, and then put the new ones in and reamp the DI's and post the results. I'm reasonably sure that there will be a marked difference in both low-end and gain+saturation.
    ^this...

    Record di and reamp through both sets of valves for us pickle!...
    would be good to hear...


    ps, can we request the song?
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