Thinking Chromatically...

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Ok so im the process of trying to use my own, undoubtedly naive, logic to view and learn the fretboard better.

I have learned my pentatonic scales, major scales and major, minor and dominant arpeggios. I use these to solo over changes...but I find it altogether uninspiring.

My new plan is to make up my own chromatic patterns including every note and sing as i play over changes, thus building up a better vocabulary.

The question that has come up in my mind is

Why dont I just label intervals from 1-12 instead of the traditional 1-8...

So in my mind instead of a minor chord being

1 b3 5   in my chromatic logic it would simply be

1 4 8.

Does this make sense or have I got something very wrong?
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Comments

  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 634
    That's a very logical approach, but you'll find that only you will know your system and you will be constantly transposing the conventional system to fit your system when you play will others. Players sometimes shout out that the chord has a flat five or sharp five etc.

    Music conventions are not always exactly logical, they have sort of evolved over time. More of an organic thing, but do what ever works for you, don't let anyone stop you, enjoy the journey.
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • GuyBoden said:
    That's a very logical approach, but you'll find that only you will know your system and you will be constantly transposing the conventional system to fit your system when you play will others. Players sometimes shout out that the chord has a flat five or sharp five etc.

    Music conventions are not always exactly logical, they have sort of evolved over time. More of an organic thing, but do what ever works for you, don't let anyone stop you, enjoy the journey.
    Thank you Guy
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  • vizviz Frets: 8002
    edited February 7
    Def stick with the traditional system. 

    The system is extremely clever and well thought through but it would take quite some explaining on here to make the reasons behind it clear. 


    In terms of how it works, if not why it works, it’s basically as follows: the two middle notes in the octave (the 4th and the 5th), which split the octave nearly down the middle, don’t contribute to the “tonality” of the scale - they are “perfect”, and don’t have a major or minor. They can be augmented or diminished (but doing so doesn’t actually make the music sound more major or minor), so there are 3 versions of each - the diminshed one, the perfect one, and the augmented one. And they overlap, with each other, and with the notes above and below. So a diminished 4th sounds the same as a major 3rd, and an augmented 5th sounds the same as a minor 6th. And aug4 = dim5. (All assuming modern tuning). 

    That leaves the notes on either side of them, the 2nd and 3rd, and the 6th and 7th. 

    Each of them can be the major version or the minor version, which gives the psychological effect of lightening or darkening the mood of the music (or can do, anyway). So there are only two versions of each of those notes. 

    So from bottom to top, that’s how you get the root note, the two 2nds, the two 3rds, the 4th and the 5th (plus the one between, which is exactly midway up the octave), then the two 6ths and the two 7ths. Then the octave above. 
    Anything that isn’t pentatonic is pretentious wank -  LastMantra
    more on the strength of my ability to own a PA than to play a guitar” - ICBM
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 634
    viz said:
    Def stick with the traditional system. 

    The system is extremely clever and well thought through but it would take quite some explaining on here to make the reasons behind it clear. 


    In terms of how it works, if not why it works, it’s basically as follows: the two middle notes in the octave (the 4th and the 5th), which split the octave nearly down the middle, don’t contribute to the “tonality” of the scale - they are “perfect”, and don’t have a major or minor. They can be augmented or diminished (but doing so doesn’t actually make the music sound more major or minor), so there are 3 versions of each - the diminshed one, the perfect one, and the augmented one. And they overlap, with each other, and with the notes above and below. So a diminished 4th sounds the same as a major 3rd, and an augmented 5th sounds the same as a minor 6th. And aug4 = dim5. (All assuming modern tuning). 

    That leaves the notes on either side of them, the 2nd and 3rd, and the 6th and 7th. 

    Each of them can be the major version or the minor version, which gives the psychological effect of lightening or darkening the mood of the music (or can do, anyway). So there are only two versions of each of those notes. 

    So from bottom to top, that’s how you get the root note, the two 2nds, the two 3rds, the 4th and the 5th (plus the one between, which is exactly midway up the octave), then the two 6ths and the two 7ths. Then the octave above. 

    As you know, the illogical use of b3, #5, b7 etc is all based on comparing scales to the Major scale. The illogical domination by Major scale harmony started in the 1600's and we've been forced to use it ever since, re-enforced by music academic institutions over centuries.  Unfortunately, we're stuck with comparing everything to the Major scale, but it does makes life easier, because everyone is forced to learn the same system.
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • GuyBoden said:
    viz said:
    Def stick with the traditional system. 

    The system is extremely clever and well thought through but it would take quite some explaining on here to make the reasons behind it clear. 


    In terms of how it works, if not why it works, it’s basically as follows: the two middle notes in the octave (the 4th and the 5th), which split the octave nearly down the middle, don’t contribute to the “tonality” of the scale - they are “perfect”, and don’t have a major or minor. They can be augmented or diminished (but doing so doesn’t actually make the music sound more major or minor), so there are 3 versions of each - the diminshed one, the perfect one, and the augmented one. And they overlap, with each other, and with the notes above and below. So a diminished 4th sounds the same as a major 3rd, and an augmented 5th sounds the same as a minor 6th. And aug4 = dim5. (All assuming modern tuning). 

    That leaves the notes on either side of them, the 2nd and 3rd, and the 6th and 7th. 

    Each of them can be the major version or the minor version, which gives the psychological effect of lightening or darkening the mood of the music (or can do, anyway). So there are only two versions of each of those notes. 

    So from bottom to top, that’s how you get the root note, the two 2nds, the two 3rds, the 4th and the 5th (plus the one between, which is exactly midway up the octave), then the two 6ths and the two 7ths. Then the octave above. 

    As you know, the illogical use of b3, #5, b7 etc is all based on comparing scales to the Major scale. The illogical domination by Major scale harmony started in the 1600's and we've been forced to use it ever since, re-enforced by music academic institutions over centuries.  Unfortunately, we're stuck with comparing everything to the Major scale, but it does makes life easier, because everyone is forced to learn the same system.
    This is what i was thinking.
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 1302
    Very good @viz ;

    like many things, science, art, etc,  it helps to look at things from multiple viewpoints, not just one

    For example 
    major chord is 1 3 5  and minor is 1 b3 5 to some people
    Or to others
    major chord is 1 5 8 and minor is 1 4 8 (like you suggest)
    And to others it is 
    major 1 +maj3rd +min3rd,  and minor is 1 +min3rd +maj3rd

    they are all correct, but each ones comes in handy in different scenarios

    e.g.  I find the latter the most useful because anywhere on the fretboard I can find a major or minor 3rd interval really easily, and for me all other Intervals spring from that

    yes I know most of the inversions, and I know most of the caged shapes, and I know some scale and modes, but I still find that latter approach of most use, especially when I am trying to work out chord progressions or follow someone 
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  • viz said:
    Def stick with the traditional system. 

    The system is extremely clever and well thought through but it would take quite some explaining on here to make the reasons behind it clear. 


    In terms of how it works, if not why it works, it’s basically as follows: the two middle notes in the octave (the 4th and the 5th), which split the octave nearly down the middle, don’t contribute to the “tonality” of the scale - they are “perfect”, and don’t have a major or minor. They can be augmented or diminished (but doing so doesn’t actually make the music sound more major or minor), so there are 3 versions of each - the diminshed one, the perfect one, and the augmented one. And they overlap, with each other, and with the notes above and below. So a diminished 4th sounds the same as a major 3rd, and an augmented 5th sounds the same as a minor 6th. And aug4 = dim5. (All assuming modern tuning). 

    That leaves the notes on either side of them, the 2nd and 3rd, and the 6th and 7th. 

    Each of them can be the major version or the minor version, which gives the psychological effect of lightening or darkening the mood of the music (or can do, anyway). So there are only two versions of each of those notes. 

    So from bottom to top, that’s how you get the root note, the two 2nds, the two 3rds, the 4th and the 5th (plus the one between, which is exactly midway up the octave), then the two 6ths and the two 7ths. Then the octave above. 
    This makes sense.
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  • vizviz Frets: 8002
    edited February 7
    GuyBoden said:
    viz said:
    Def stick with the traditional system. 

    The system is extremely clever and well thought through but it would take quite some explaining on here to make the reasons behind it clear. 


    In terms of how it works, if not why it works, it’s basically as follows: the two middle notes in the octave (the 4th and the 5th), which split the octave nearly down the middle, don’t contribute to the “tonality” of the scale - they are “perfect”, and don’t have a major or minor. They can be augmented or diminished (but doing so doesn’t actually make the music sound more major or minor), so there are 3 versions of each - the diminshed one, the perfect one, and the augmented one. And they overlap, with each other, and with the notes above and below. So a diminished 4th sounds the same as a major 3rd, and an augmented 5th sounds the same as a minor 6th. And aug4 = dim5. (All assuming modern tuning). 

    That leaves the notes on either side of them, the 2nd and 3rd, and the 6th and 7th. 

    Each of them can be the major version or the minor version, which gives the psychological effect of lightening or darkening the mood of the music (or can do, anyway). So there are only two versions of each of those notes. 

    So from bottom to top, that’s how you get the root note, the two 2nds, the two 3rds, the 4th and the 5th (plus the one between, which is exactly midway up the octave), then the two 6ths and the two 7ths. Then the octave above. 

    As you know, the illogical use of b3, #5, b7 etc is all based on comparing scales to the Major scale. The illogical domination by Major scale harmony started in the 1600's and we've been forced to use it ever since, re-enforced by music academic institutions over centuries.  Unfortunately, we're stuck with comparing everything to the Major scale, but it does makes life easier, because everyone is forced to learn the same system.

    Yep, indeed probably even earlier - ever since tallis and tavener and palestrina and that lot have the major and minor scales vied for premier scale status amongst their modal peers. So I wouldn’t say everything is / should be compared to the major scale per se, but perhaps to major and/or minor. 

    But I’m not sure that leads to the practice of calling things b3 or #5 (I don’t even know what a #5 is!) and unless the 7th were deliberately flattened, I’d call it a minor 7th not a b7, certainly in the tonic chord, to distinguish it from the major 7th. 

    Anyway, each to his/her own but I’m deffo not a 1 b3 5 kind of guy; I think in terms of 1 M3 5 for major, and 1 m3 5 for minor, and the minor scale has equal a status as the major. 

    Anything that isn’t pentatonic is pretentious wank -  LastMantra
    more on the strength of my ability to own a PA than to play a guitar” - ICBM
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 1302
    Why does a piano have white keys and black keys in the arrangement they are?
    I think it is interesting that the only minor scale you can play on the white keys only is (one of the) A minor scales.

    now, I always thought it was odd that scales started from C to C.  Whereas it would be more “obvious” for thepm to go from A to A, A being the first letter of the alphabet.   Which suggests that a piano is arranged for A minor, i which case it is the minor scale which everything else comes from ;) 


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  • vizviz Frets: 8002
    edited February 7
    The black keys are where they are to enable the whole model of the keys system, the circle of fifths - ie the relationships between keys, the whole I IV V system, and the diatonic modes of the A minor (or C major) scales. It’s an amazing model!

    Imagine a keyboard with the black notes arranged in 1s and 4s instead of 2s and 3s!

    I have done that for you

    https://youtu.be/5Xqip5Jzcpw
    Anything that isn’t pentatonic is pretentious wank -  LastMantra
    more on the strength of my ability to own a PA than to play a guitar” - ICBM
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 634
    edited February 10
    Ok so im the process of trying to use my own, undoubtedly naive, logic to view and learn the fretboard better.

    I have learned my pentatonic scales, major scales and major, minor and dominant arpeggios. I use these to solo over changes...but I find it altogether uninspiring.

    My new plan is to make up my own chromatic patterns including every note and sing as i play over changes, thus building up a better vocabulary.

    The question that has come up in my mind is

    Why dont I just label intervals from 1-12 instead of the traditional 1-8...

    So in my mind instead of a minor chord being

    1 b3 5   in my chromatic logic it would simply be

    1 4 8.

    Does this make sense or have I got something very wrong?

    Apparently, similar systems to your proposal, but using numbered intervals 0-12, have been used before.

    Here's an example:
    www.thecipher.com/3_minute_intro.html 
     







    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • GuyBoden said:
    Ok so im the process of trying to use my own, undoubtedly naive, logic to view and learn the fretboard better.

    I have learned my pentatonic scales, major scales and major, minor and dominant arpeggios. I use these to solo over changes...but I find it altogether uninspiring.

    My new plan is to make up my own chromatic patterns including every note and sing as i play over changes, thus building up a better vocabulary.

    The question that has come up in my mind is

    Why dont I just label intervals from 1-12 instead of the traditional 1-8...

    So in my mind instead of a minor chord being

    1 b3 5   in my chromatic logic it would simply be

    1 4 8.

    Does this make sense or have I got something very wrong?

    Apparently, similar systems to your proposal, but using numbered intervals 0-12, have been used before.

    Here's an example:
    www.thecipher.com/3_minute_intro.html 
     







    Very interesting thank you @GuyBoden ;
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