How to learn a song without picking up the guitar

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lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488

I learnt the guitar, and therefore music, by playing from a simple chord book and strumming for hours, playing along to records and copying my mates. Although I can play other instruments, I had zero training, instead gleaning bits here and there from the mysteries of music instruction books. And practice, practice, practice. Much has changed in learning material since then (YouTube, my god, YouTube) although one thing has remained:

it’s all practical study.

I still can’t read music. Trial and error is my guide. Give me a track to play along with and my guitar, and I’ll have the song composition more or less worked out by the end of the song. A good deal more to work out the lead guitar.

Now that I am learning how to read music on the piano, and learn the piano properly with scale practice and arpeggios to a metronome, I can feel that a part of music comprehension, composition and indeed soloing is about to open up to me:

understanding a song without using an instrument.

The limitlessness of music is underpinned by some basic components. Can the forum help identify these components, the options of each one, and suggests methods to train the musical mind to recognise them? Basic and advanced tips are all welcome.

Here is a suggestion to kick things off: use the mental space provided by arpeggiated chords to recognise the chords in the music.

I may require a good week to explain what I mean by mental space and arpeggiated chords as I lack the formal knowledge to define them. I am sure many of you have this knowledge and the skills to present its explanation clearly without my undertaking, so please do chip in.

I will bring each point to the header of this thread to provide a guide and avoid repeated suggestions.

Once we have defined the steps, we could put members to the test with some easy songs.

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Comments

  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    Do you mean being able to recognise intervals using relative pitch ?    .... as in know just by listening a songs chord progression  has moved from the home chord (tonic) to minor 3rd etc ?

    If so then basically you can decode a songs chord structure  by recognising 2 features ..... the interval it has moved to and the flavour such as major, minor, maj7, Dom7 etc. This is a pretty easy skill to pick up if practiced often and I start every guitar lesson with this to build this skill in students .... being IMHO one of the most useful musical skills you can have
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    Thanks for being the first to chip in @Danny1969 ;
    After learning the 3 different positions of a triad (135, 351, 513), it dawned on me how easy it was to hear a chord triad, sing those notes and then find them on the keyboard. However, with the guitar I just searched for the bass root of the chord and then applied my knowledge of chords relative to the tonic. Unfortunately, these are tricks I use with an instrument. I wouldn't know how to use relative pitch to identify which notes they are, or even the bass root for that matter, probably because I've never tried. So before I do, if I've understood correctly, I should do the following:

    identify the tonic note, use relative pitch to establish the scale (major or minor) and then identify the bass root of each chord to determine the chords, using my memory of basic musical chord theory to identify the chord (I, IV, VI, II, etc.)
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    First attempt worked, albeit with a fairly simple chords of c, f, dm, f, g. I used the bass root to identify the chords relative to the tonic. Even though I couldn’t mentally hear the D relative to the tonic, I knew it had to be the second note in the scale relative to the IV as I could mentally hear two notes descending. 
    Is the trick to identify the note in the scale relative to the previous note rather than the tonic? Or should I train to hear a semitone or tone difference?
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    How about mentally identifying a melody using intervals? Let’s take Somewhere over the Rainbow. I’ll write down my process: 
    Some: tonic, right?
    Where: octave
    O: semi tone drop
    Ver: brain suggests a tone drop to VI but after running up and down a major scale and mentally hearing a 135 triad, I believe it’s a 2 tone drop to the V
    The: tone difference up to VI
    Rain: tone difference, looks like I’m right, up to VII
    Bow: semi tone up to VIII; I can hear I’m right as I’m fairly confident recognising the octave

    any suggestions for mentally verifying is appreciated

    Way: same as as Some, so tonic
    up: I counted the major scale and was surprised to hear High fell on the V, so the interval is a tone above, VI
    high: as previously said, V
    There's: ah, this is below the tonic, way below, a tone and a half, so low VI
    a: an octave above?
    land: tone down to V

    panicking, so I’m running through the melody to identify the easy notes and work from them, such as Bye. Hearing III, II, I, It seems that these three notes are II, III, I.

    That means that Once In A start on the II like Lul, In has the that particular drop you only hear on the VII.
    That I Dreamed Of has a similar run but where on the scale? Of sounds like a IV so I checked it against the easier heard V and it seems right. Not sure, not sure. Checked Dreamed against Land. There the same so I was wrong. Instead I now hear That I is the tonic and II. SO of must be a VI. I’ll write that down:
    that: I
    I: II
    dreamed: V
    of: VI
    Once: II
    in: LOW VII
    a: I, checked against Some
    lul: II
    la: III
    bye: tonic

    That was harder than I expected. Let me see if any of it is right. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited February 2021
    “A” and “Land” are the 4th and major 3rd respectively. 

    This is very good, what your doing, good luck with it. But also just listen to the music

    The one thing I’d suggest is, if you’re going to think of music in this analytical sort of way, try and also identify the notes from their relationship to the tonic, not just to the previous note. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    edited February 2021
    I know all  my theory, can moderately reasonably hold a tune, but I can’t for life if me sing an interval, and I absolutely can’t hear an interval.
    so it’s a no from me  
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    As @viz was replying, I was checking my notes on the piano, and yes the mistakes on a and land were quickly obvious. I could see/reach for the notes on the piano. In my head alone, it was such an effort. 
    After years of playing, I have a bag of tricks to go to for identifying the notes, mostly quick trial and error followed by a reapplication of the same tricks. Mentally hearing the notes and transcribing them must be such a wonderful gift and break down the complexity of music to some fundamental rules. 
    Sooner or later we can discuss beats to the bar, rhythm, bpm, etc. For the moment can we continue with scales and identifying notes in a melody? @viz , you suggested identifying notes from the relation to the tonic. What mental exercises can I perform to train recognition?
    do professional singers possess this ability? Is this what Rick Beato mentions in his study book?
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    Looking around YouTube, the term for these exercises is ear training, or as @viz suggested, listening to the music. I see there are many exercises to practice, or schools of YouTube to follow to train your ear. Does anyone have a preference?
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited February 2021
    lukedlb said:
    As @viz was replying, I was checking my notes on the piano, and yes the mistakes on a and land were quickly obvious. I could see/reach for the notes on the piano. In my head alone, it was such an effort. 
    After years of playing, I have a bag of tricks to go to for identifying the notes, mostly quick trial and error followed by a reapplication of the same tricks. Mentally hearing the notes and transcribing them must be such a wonderful gift and break down the complexity of music to some fundamental rules. 
    Sooner or later we can discuss beats to the bar, rhythm, bpm, etc. For the moment can we continue with scales and identifying notes in a melody? @viz , you suggested identifying notes from the relation to the tonic. What mental exercises can I perform to train recognition?
    do professional singers possess this ability? Is this what Rick Beato mentions in his study book?
    Yes all professional musicians can do that without thinking; it’s a bit like recognising a colour as red, or green, or blue, or whatever. You hear a note and just automatically know what it is within the context of the key. I can’t remember a time when that wasn’t just normal, probably when I was like 8 or something, but I had a very intensive musical upbringing / education, so haven’t had to go through the process in a cerebral way. 

    I think as an adult the best way is probably to take two parallel, mutually supportive paths - firstly just to learn to listen properly and actively to music with just a bit more alertness than normal, which is very rewarding and enjoyable anyway; and secondly to increase your knowledge of keys and scales through studying and exercises; and then bringing the two together. Like you are doing, basically. 

    Edit - one thing on Somewhere over the Rainbow, and this applies to other music too; try to feel the whole “arc” of the melody, like looking ahead when you walk, not looking down at your feet, step-by-step. 

    So in SOTR, listen to the mini phrases and how they are almost copies of each other, leading to the end of the line. Difficult to explain on a forum but basically listen to the syllables “-where ov-” , “up high”, “a land”, and “lull (a) by” and ignore everything else for a minute. 

    Each one is a teeny descending couplet, and each couplet is below the previous one. The first is 8-7, then 6-5; then 4-3, and finally 2 (3) 1. 

    The arc of this tune almost represents a rainbow - it starts on the 1, gets flung up to the top of the octave, and curves all the way back down to the ground again. You wouldn’t write that tune if you were wanting to sing about digging a hole or rolling a boulder up a hill or something. Or maybe it’s not a rainbow, it represents reaching out for something with that octave jump, then coming back slowly to earth. Or maybe it’s just that the balance just works - the melody is balanced and natural. 

    Thinking phrase-long rather than note-by-note will help you hear things about the whole shape of the melody and deepen your understanding of how music actually works and makes a musical “sentence”, rather than just being a collection of notes and intervals. Don’t fall into the trap of missing out on the taste of the cake because you’re examining the ingredients 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4028
    lukedlb said:
    I wouldn't know how to use relative pitch to identify which notes they are, or even the bass root for that matter, probably because I've never tried. So before I do, if I've understood correctly, I should do the following....
    I dunno, what followed seemed over-complicated (not saying it's wrong though!).
    Here's a real-world example just from the other day -- it's really simple but that just illustrates the point.  This song randomly played in the car and I thought about playing it.  Can you see/ hear the notes?  I could only guess at the key but I knew what the relative intervals were immediately:
    Stereo MC's, Connected


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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    viz said:
    lukedlb said:
    As @viz was replying, I was checking my notes on the piano, and yes the mistakes on a and land were quickly obvious. I could see/reach for the notes on the piano. In my head alone, it was such an effort. 
    After years of playing, I have a bag of tricks to go to for identifying the notes, mostly quick trial and error followed by a reapplication of the same tricks. Mentally hearing the notes and transcribing them must be such a wonderful gift and break down the complexity of music to some fundamental rules. 
    Sooner or later we can discuss beats to the bar, rhythm, bpm, etc. For the moment can we continue with scales and identifying notes in a melody? @viz , you suggested identifying notes from the relation to the tonic. What mental exercises can I perform to train recognition?
    do professional singers possess this ability? Is this what Rick Beato mentions in his study book?
    Yes all professional musicians can do that without thinking; it’s a bit like recognising a colour as red, or green, or blue, or whatever. You hear a note and just automatically know what it is within the context of the key. I can’t remember a time when that wasn’t just normal, probably when I was like 8 or something, but I had a very intensive musical upbringing / education, so haven’t had to go through the process in a cerebral way. 

    I think as an adult the best way is probably to take two parallel, mutually supportive paths - firstly just to learn to listen properly and actively to music with just a bit more alertness than normal, which is very rewarding and enjoyable anyway; and secondly to increase your knowledge of keys and scales through studying and exercises; and then bringing the two together. Like you are doing, basically. 

    Edit - one thing on Somewhere over the Rainbow, and this applies to other music too; try to feel the whole “arc” of the melody, like looking ahead when you walk, not looking down at your feet, step-by-step. 

    So in SOTR, listen to the mini phrases and how they are almost copies of each other, leading to the end of the line. Difficult to explain on a forum but basically listen to the syllables “-where ov-” , “up high”, “a land”, and “lull (a) by” and ignore everything else for a minute. 

    Each one is a teeny descending couplet, and each couplet is below the previous one. The first is 8-7, then 6-5; then 4-3, and finally 2 (3) 1. 

    The arc of this tune almost represents a rainbow - it starts on the 1, gets flung up to the top of the octave, and curves all the way back down to the ground again. You wouldn’t write that tune if you were wanting to sing about digging a hole or rolling a boulder up a hill or something. Or maybe it’s not a rainbow, it represents reaching out for something with that octave jump, then coming back slowly to earth. Or maybe it’s just that the balance just works - the melody is balanced and natural. 

    Thinking phrase-long rather than note-by-note will help you hear things about the whole shape of the melody and deepen your understanding of how music actually works and makes a musical “sentence”, rather than just being a collection of notes and intervals. Don’t fall into the trap of missing out on the taste of the cake because you’re examining the ingredients 
    Thank you @viz for taking my hand for a moment and walking me through both training suggestion and SOTR. Now that you mention those descending couplets, they jump out. And as you say, it's important to hold the whole phrase in mind rather than identify note by note. I'm quite excited about taking this path. I looked at the Beato programme briefly but got spooked by the extensive musical theory necessary to follow his explanations. Instead, I found mention on the forum of the Functional Ear Trainer app and have spent the day on that. All good so far. My middle finger is still swollen from a fall last week so until I can play guitar, I'll be improving my ear.

    Actually, my plan is three-fold: ear training, learn to read music, and understand rhythm a lot better. Before I bust my finger I was learning Opening by Philip Glass where you hold 3 beats to the bar on the right hand, 2 beats to the bar on the left hand. Other than the hypnotic playing and the extra beats, it showed I needed to improve my time keeping and improve my pressure control over the keys. As I prefer a New Orleans style of piano, or B3 style, I've never had to worry with these types of control. Incredible stuff; I could feel my mind widening.

    The plan so far is the training app for ear training, Simply Piano app for reading music, and a metronome for timing.
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488

    Grunfeld said:
    lukedlb said:
    I wouldn't know how to use relative pitch to identify which notes they are, or even the bass root for that matter, probably because I've never tried. So before I do, if I've understood correctly, I should do the following....
    I dunno, what followed seemed over-complicated (not saying it's wrong though!).
    Here's a real-world example just from the other day -- it's really simple but that just illustrates the point.  This song randomly played in the car and I thought about playing it.  Can you see/ hear the notes?  I could only guess at the key but I knew what the relative intervals were immediately:
    Stereo MC's, Connected


    Yeah, that one comes easy. Minor key, riffing on the I, II, and III. Flattened 7th for the stumble, you might fall?
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited February 2021
    lukedlb said:

    Grunfeld said:
    lukedlb said:
    I wouldn't know how to use relative pitch to identify which notes they are, or even the bass root for that matter, probably because I've never tried. So before I do, if I've understood correctly, I should do the following....
    I dunno, what followed seemed over-complicated (not saying it's wrong though!).
    Here's a real-world example just from the other day -- it's really simple but that just illustrates the point.  This song randomly played in the car and I thought about playing it.  Can you see/ hear the notes?  I could only guess at the key but I knew what the relative intervals were immediately:
    Stereo MC's, Connected


    Yeah, that one comes easy. Minor key, riffing on the I, II, and III. Flattened 7th for the stumble, you might fall?
    Assume you mean the “make sure you’re connected” bit, which has a 2 in it, though the intro / backing drone for the first 43 seconds is 1 3 and 4. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4028
    edited February 2021
    Connected -- Is just a nice easy one that repeats a zillion times at a relaxed tempo, and doesn't stray into "jazz" territory --  so kind of ideal for these "suss it out by ear" exercises. 

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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    viz said:
    lukedlb said:

    Grunfeld said:
    lukedlb said:
    I wouldn't know how to use relative pitch to identify which notes they are, or even the bass root for that matter, probably because I've never tried. So before I do, if I've understood correctly, I should do the following....
    I dunno, what followed seemed over-complicated (not saying it's wrong though!).
    Here's a real-world example just from the other day -- it's really simple but that just illustrates the point.  This song randomly played in the car and I thought about playing it.  Can you see/ hear the notes?  I could only guess at the key but I knew what the relative intervals were immediately:
    Stereo MC's, Connected


    Yeah, that one comes easy. Minor key, riffing on the I, II, and III. Flattened 7th for the stumble, you might fall?
    Assume you mean the “make sure you’re connected” bit, which has a 2 in it, though the intro / backing drone for the first 43 seconds is 1 3 and 4. 
    Oops, you’re right. Back to the drawing board for me. 
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