LED ceiling panels - parallel wiring. Any electricians?

goldtop

Anyone familiar with installing LED ceiling panels? I'd like to put about 10 into my workshop. It already has the standard 600x600mm suspended ceiling and two fluorescent tube lamps (with nasty light quality and poor spread). Multiple LED panels will make the light coverage more even and can be placed for particular tasks. No brainer...

I got a quote from an electrician: £900 and so busy he can't do it for 2 months. There's only about £300 of parts, and the connections are already in place (the 240V supply to the fluorescents and the switch). So why not DIY? It's trivially easy to remove the existing tiles and insert the LED panels, and all/most of them come with the driver as part of the package.

The one thing I can't check is the way in which these are designed for parallel wiring - none of the datasheets show the driver's wiring hookup. I'm hoping they have the most useful arrangement - something like double terminals for each of L/N/E so that they can be 'daisy-chained'.

Anyone know? Other SNAFUs I haven't thought of?

steveledzep

I'm not a spark, but your daisy chain thought is how I would go.  No different to when I installed 9 downlighters in my bathroom.  LED's draw low current so I wouldn't envisage a problem.

russpm

These are generally easy enough to wire in. Do you have the part number etc of the fitting and I’ll take a look.?

russpm

steveledzep said:

I'm not a spark, but your daisy chain thought is how I would go.  No different to when I installed 9 downlighters in my bathroom.  LED's draw low current so I wouldn't envisage a problem.

In a bathroom these would need to be low voltage via transformer(s) on a RCD protected circuit as bathrooms are high risk locations.

ICBM

If each unit comes with a driver which is designed for direct mains connection you can simply chain them all together in parallel. The total current draw will certainly be less than for the strip lights.

russpm

Also, new LED fittings are bright. 10 fittings sounds a lot but obviously I’ve no idea how big I’m your workshop is. Some lighting manufacturers have a tool on their website where you can enter the dimensions of your room and it will map out what you need. 

goldtop

Thanks for the advice. Here's an example:

https://www.ledbulbs.co.uk/products/robus-atmos38w-led-panel-600x600mm-cool-white-ip20-ram40406060-01

As you can see, there's no wiring diagram shown - possibly because it is so trivial. I am just hoping to get an idea of the practicalities of the parallel wiring. For example, at 1:42 in this video, you can see the type of arrangement I am hoping for:



There's a pair of screw terminals for both L and N, making daisy chaining really easy.

If I did 10 x 40W, that's less than 2A, so the cabling is light enough. I'll double check the MCB in the consumer unit - might I have to lower its rating?

I'll also check out the light output figures and area. The nature of this space is that most of it has a lot of racking to within about 50cm of the ceiling, so lots of shadows will be cast. The ideal layout is a pair of panels for each aisle. That and a pair for the workbench and another one for the doorway.

russpm

Domestic Lighting circuits are generally protected by a 5 amp circuit breaker. It wouldn’t harm anything to lower it as long as you don’t get nuisance tripping. Are the lights fitting into a ceiling grid? If so you will need to ensure the metal grid is suitably earthed and your cables to the lights are appropriately run. 

ICBM

goldtop said:

If I did 10 x 40W, that's less than 2A, so the cabling is light enough. I'll double check the MCB in the consumer unit - might I have to lower its rating?

10 x 40W LED is going to be like being under stadium floodlights.

LED produces roughly ten times the light output of a filament bulb and at least double that of a fluorescent tube for the same power consumption... so that would be like 4kW of filament lighting or 800W of fluorescent.

russpm

I would also suggest using Kliks for connecting  each fitting electrically 

spark240

russpm said:

Domestic Lighting circuits are generally protected by a 5 amp circuit breaker. It wouldn’t harm anything to lower it as long as you don’t get nuisance tripping. Are the lights fitting into a ceiling grid? If so you will need to ensure the metal grid is suitably earthed and your cables to the lights are appropriately run. 

5A ?...really...last time I saw one of those was rewireable fuse...

Earth the grid ..interesting...unless you want to introduce a potential hazard....."A metal ceiling grid is generally neither an exposed-conductive-part; nor an extraneous-conductive-part. Therefore will NOT require earthing or bonding."

Note - 40W led panels are bright ...we would generally replace 10 x 4 lamps mods with 6 Led panels,...but it does depend on ceiling height.

2nd note - looping the supply to all the fittings is no issue, if you want it easy use the Hager push connect Junction boxes.

3rd note - Led drivers start up current is circa 10 time the running current, you styanda5ad house wiring will be fine with this as its a nano second , however your protective device may be a 6A type 1 or 2....this might not like the start up current....please confirm the fuse / mcb type for the lighting circuit?

russpm

spark240 said:

russpm said:

Domestic Lighting circuits are generally protected by a 5 amp circuit breaker. It wouldn’t harm anything to lower it as long as you don’t get nuisance tripping. Are the lights fitting into a ceiling grid? If so you will need to ensure the metal grid is suitably earthed and your cables to the lights are appropriately run. 

5A ?...really...last time I saw one of those was rewireable fuse...

Earth the grid ..interesting...unless you want to introduce a potential hazard....."A metal ceiling grid is generally neither an exposed-conductive-part; nor an extraneous-conductive-part. Therefore will NOT require earthing or bonding."

Note - 40W led panels are bright ...we would generally replace 10 x 4 lamps mods with 6 Led panels,...but it does depend on ceiling height.

2nd note - looping the supply to all the fittings is no issue, if you want it easy use the Hager push connect Junction boxes.

3rd note - Led drivers start up current is circa 10 time the running current, you styanda5ad house wiring will be fine with this as its a nano second , however your protective device may be a 6A type 1 or 2....this might not like the start up current....please confirm the fuse / mcb type for the lighting circuit?

If cables are run across the grid like they often are, it can be beneficially to earth the grid.

goldtop

Yes, there's a grid for the suspended ceiling and it may be grounded for the existing fluorescent tube fittings that are screwed to it. I'll stick my head up into the void on Monday.

That Hager Klik system looks superb, but probably a bit over-engineered for my needs? Certainly after adding the Marshalling Box and the proprietary cables, the costs will mount up. For now, Plan A is that the ceiling panels have the necessary terminals for daisy-chaining. If not, Plan B is to use the Wago 222 or 221 if the panel driver has just a single input for mains supply.

https://www.wago.com/gb/electrical-interconnections/splicing-connectors-221

I like the idea that the Wago pressure fit is consistent (cf using a screw terminal), and it looks speedy to fit which means less time with my head stuck in the ceiling void (dust, spiders, etc).

@spark240 - I will check the distribution board to see exactly what sort of protection fitted.

I will also buy a single panel now and check its light output in one of the aisles between the racking. If your suspicions are right about the light output, I will reduce the number of panels to about 6. Big saving on outlay and almost 50% off running costs.

prowla

ICBM said:

goldtop said:

If I did 10 x 40W, that's less than 2A, so the cabling is light enough. I'll double check the MCB in the consumer unit - might I have to lower its rating?

10 x 40W LED is going to be like being under stadium floodlights.

LED produces roughly ten times the light output of a filament bulb and at least double that of a fluorescent tube for the same power consumption... so that would be like 4kW of filament lighting or 800W of fluorescent.

With that much light, you might find a police helicopter overhead and a knock on the door from the D.S.

spark240

Hi prowla said:

ICBM said:

goldtop said:

If I did 10 x 40W, that's less than 2A, so the cabling is light enough. I'll double check the MCB in the consumer unit - might I have to lower its rating?

10 x 40W LED is going to be like being under stadium floodlights.

LED produces roughly ten times the light output of a filament bulb and at least double that of a fluorescent tube for the same power consumption... so that would be like 4kW of filament lighting or 800W of fluorescent.

With that much light, you might find a police helicopter overhead and a knock on the door from the D.S.                             it’s about the lumens output , plus led only emits light in one direction so you lose the ambient spill ....10 x?....maybe not 

p90fool

I'm running a pair of cool white 38w 600x600 panels in a 16' X 10' garage and it's like daylight, I almost never need an extra lamp for engine work. 

I don't have any obstructions throwing shadows, but they really are bright, and don't seem as directional as most other light sources. 

goldtop

Oh, I see. Might look so bright that they think I'm running a cannabis factory? We get a lot of those around here.

On this calculator...

https://www.vonn.com/blog/determine-many-led-lumens-youll-need-properly-light-space/

... it looks like 400W for about 50m^2 is equivalent to 'Hospital' level lighting. It suggests that 'Warehouse' levels would be possible from just 3 panels. But - as explained above - the layout and use of tall racking means that 3 panels would give poor coverage with many dark areas. So perhaps 6 is a middle ground? It would be easy to add more, if necessary.

Also, just discovered the Wago 224 2+1 connector is pretty much perfect for the Plan B hook up: push-fit on the solid connectors and sprung clip for the stranded wires to the panel drivers:



(Video shows a wall lighting application, identical to my ceiling panels.)

ICBM

spark240 said:

it’s about the lumens output , plus led only emits light in one direction so you lose the ambient spill ....10 x?....maybe not 

Yes, I get what you're saying about directionality, which could potentially account for a 2:1 difference, but all the LED bulbs I've got in my house are significantly brighter in the room than their claimed 'incandescent equivalent', and about equal to old bulbs of ten times the power. I've got a 13W in the kitchen which is noticeably brighter than the previous 100W filament, and not far off a 150. The 5W ones I've got throughout the house are as bright as 60W filaments.

What's really shocking in some ways is that LED is *still* only about 20% efficient in terms of electrical input to light power output, which means filament bulbs are essentially room heaters producing about 2% of light as an insignificant byproduct...

exocet

I fitted a single 400mm x 400mm 28 watt panel in my garage. My garage is about 8m x 5m. One panel is not quite enough - 2 would be pretty good, 4 would be excellent....more than 4 would be painful!

goldtop

exocet said:

I fitted a single 400mm x 400mm 28 watt panel in my garage. My garage is about 8m x 5m. One panel is not quite enough - 2 would be pretty good, 4 would be excellent....more than 4 would be painful!

Interesting. I presume that the single 28W panel is not enough for you to work in the engine bay? 

One thing that I've noticed with these 600x600 panels is that it's hard to find lower wattage versions. All seem to be 35+W. So using more lower power panels to get even spread isn't an option. I suppose a dimmer might help, but I've developed a hatred of them over the years.

spark240

If you want a working light....as in workshop , garage etc....then 4000k light render is the way to go, this is what you see in supermarkets etc....if you want a softer light then 2700-3000k render is the solution, this is more clothing retail style.

There are Led downlights about now with tuneable colours, so you can try about 3 different options and decide what you like best.