Carr versus Bartel

clashcityrocker

Thinking of trading an 8W Merc and a Skylark for a Starwood!
Any comments from those that own or have played the Bartel's?

Winny_Pooh

@dangriffiths ;

mgaw

Bartel for me,  fantastic amp

dangriffiths

Exceptional amps all round - will do what both Carrs in one box and then some.

allen

Haven't owned one, but tried it out at Coda. Left me a bit cold to be honest. I had high hopes.

I'm a long term Tone King Imperial owner so I think I've got reasonable taste in tone.

I also tried out a skylark and loved it. Seemed to be able to get that light overdrive SRV tone very easily.

I also tried the Carr Mercury V which many people on these pages love, but it was hard to find a sound that I really loved.

In general I don't tend to like the tweed thing that much.

keir

These look cool but not cheap! Like the look of the tone king gremlin which is obviously a much simpler affair but still designed by the same person. 

Fuengi

This won't be universally popular and is a digression to the OP, but in my experience of owning a Tone King Falcon I think they are a little bit overrated.

Really nice amp on the Rhythm setting, but the Tweed and Lead are really pretty ordinary, so for me it only really does one thing well. 

I have found my Honeyboy 5F1 / 2 amps do a far nicer blackface style with an EQ pedal in front and the Tweed is no comparison to the real thing.

I think I also rate my Blackstar Studio 10 EL84 up there with the Falcon, I certainly can't hear the difference being worth around £1,000.

I'd be interested to compare a new Supro amp like the Thunderbolt or the Keeley one to the Tone King Rhythm setting. 

brucegill

If you get to try one of these, read the manual before hand. The tone stack doesn’t react like a normal “bass” and “treble”. They sort of do, but sort of don’t. Tweed-ish sound is 5 and 5, blackface 7 and 7 up to more mid scooped at 10 and 10. 

The build quality is amazing. But I think the biggest thing is the cabs. 

Very pleased with my one. 

clashcityrocker

Many thanks to those who have posted and PM'ed... it's all helpful!
It seems crazy to trade what are 2 fabulous amps but such is the nature of gas... the grass is always greener and all that!
I am in no rush so will go and give that Bartel a go when Coda re-opens!

DB1

Fuengi said:

This won't be universally popular and is a digression to the OP, but in my experience of owning a Tone King Falcon I think they are a little bit overrated.

Really nice amp on the Rhythm setting, but the Tweed and Lead are really pretty ordinary, so for me it only really does one thing well. 

I have found my Honeyboy 5F1 / 2 amps do a far nicer blackface style with an EQ pedal in front and the Tweed is no comparison to the real thing.

I think I also rate my Blackstar Studio 10 EL84 up there with the Falcon, I certainly can't hear the difference being worth around £1,000.

I'd be interested to compare a new Supro amp like the Thunderbolt or the Keeley one to the Tone King Rhythm setting. 

Interesting re: The Tone King. I have a Falcon Grande which I really like. As you say, the rhythm setting is terrific, with an almost acoustic-like quality to the sound. I'm not a fan of the lead setting, but that's not how I play - I'm a fan of the tweed setting though. What I like most about it (apart from the excellent reverb) is the 'openness' of the sound. I sold it once and bought it back because I missed it.

I've just bought back my old Imperial II (I missed that as well), so it's interesting to do a direct comparison. The Imperial can give you the treble/bass range separately, which the Falcon can't, but to me the Falcon has that more airy and open tone.

My only experience with Carr amps is having had a couple of Sportsmans.  Nice amps, but at the volumes that I play at, I found them a bit dark, and a little 'boxy'. Just my thoughts, and given the reviews that they get, I'm sure it was more me than the amp.

I was looking at that Bartel, and perhaps one day, but I'm a lazy git, and I swap guitars around so much that I prefer controls in front of me! Oh, and it's bleedin' expensive.

Lebarque

DB1 said:

Fuengi said:

This won't be universally popular and is a digression to the OP, but in my experience of owning a Tone King Falcon I think they are a little bit overrated.

Really nice amp on the Rhythm setting, but the Tweed and Lead are really pretty ordinary, so for me it only really does one thing well. 

I have found my Honeyboy 5F1 / 2 amps do a far nicer blackface style with an EQ pedal in front and the Tweed is no comparison to the real thing.

I think I also rate my Blackstar Studio 10 EL84 up there with the Falcon, I certainly can't hear the difference being worth around £1,000.

I'd be interested to compare a new Supro amp like the Thunderbolt or the Keeley one to the Tone King Rhythm setting. 

Interesting re: The Tone King. I have a Falcon Grande which I really like. As you say, the rhythm setting is terrific, with an almost acoustic-like quality to the sound. I'm not a fan of the lead setting, but that's not how I play - I'm a fan of the tweed setting though. What I like most about it (apart from the excellent reverb) is the 'openness' of the sound. I sold it once and bought it back because I missed it.

I've just bought back my old Imperial II (I missed that as well), so it's interesting to do a direct comparison. The Imperial can give you the treble/bass range separately, which the Falcon can't, but to me the Falcon has that more airy and open tone.

My only experience with Carr amps is having had a couple of Sportsmans.  Nice amps, but at the volumes that I play at, I found them a bit dark, and a little 'boxy'. Just my thoughts, and given the reviews that they get, I'm sure it was more me than the amp.

I was looking at that Bartel, and perhaps one day, but I'm a lazy git, and I swap guitars around so much that I prefer controls in front of me! Oh, and it's bleedin' expensive.

I used to be a bit of a Carr fanboy, but they leave me a bit cold these days. I've played the Skylark, Telstar, Sportsman and Impala; all of which were underwhelming for one reason or another. The one to have is the Rambler, but the Mercury V seems to get good reviews too (not played one). The new Super Bee looks interesting too. The construction of Carrs is impressive, but my opinion these days is that comes at the expense of a bit of soul and character. They can be a bit sterile. World class reverb though. The tone of my Lazy J20 is a league above though. All IMO etc. etc.

Dominic

I have been through most of the Carrs .........I eventually tired of my Rambler after a long time because I started to find it a bit harsh in the treble ......I put a Cannabis Rex speaker into it which softened that perfectly but interestingly I have a Lincoln which is extremely sweet in the clean channel and I played it alongside the Rambler Blackface sound forndays on end but the Lincoln won by a mile ......I really like it but the dirty channel is pretty meh .
 I wanted to love a Merc V but every time I play one I find it sounds "boxy "

Lebarque

Dominic said:

I have been through most of the Carrs .........I eventually tired of my Rambler after a long time because I started to find it a bit harsh in the treble ......I put a Cannabis Rex speaker into it which softened that perfectly but interestingly I have a Lincoln which is extremely sweet in the clean channel and I played it alongside the Rambler Blackface sound forndays on end but the Lincoln won by a mile ......I really like it but the dirty channel is pretty meh .
 I wanted to love a Merc V but every time I play one I find it sounds "boxy "

Know what you mean about the Rambler treble. It's a little 'metallic' for want of a better word. It's still my favourite Carr I've tried though. I actually preferred the warmer triode mode.

ricky50

Ok - I've got both - a Bartel Roseland and a Carr Rambler and I used to own a Skylark.  Therefore I know these amps very well. I've never played a Starwood or a Sugerland. So I've just done something for the OP that I haven't really attempted to do before which is to set up the Bartel and the Carr with an AB/Y box and identical cables (length and manufacturer) and then EQ them as close as I can get and then play the same guitar through them both constantly switching the AB box.  Did that plugged straight in with no pedals and then did the same through my pedalboard.  Absolutely no contest.  The Bartel won every time.  That's on any way I look at it.

Now it's not exactly a totally fair contest.  The Roseland's cabinet is a good bit bigger and tuned to make it sound it's absolute best.  It's also a different kind of speaker altogether but I have at another time put the Carr through the Roseland's speaker and the other way around and the Bartel still wins so it's not all about the cab or the speaker.  

It's also very much about feel.  The Carr is a bit stiffer and therefore maybe sort of unforgiving - you have to play more precisely.  The Roseland just seems to fit around what your playing in such a way that it makes you more involved and I can get into what I'm trying to do in a more satisfying way.

I'd hate anyone to take from this that the Rambler is not a good amp.  It's a fantastic amp. It's still the best all round gigging amp/combo I can think of but that's because there are many more variables to what you need for your average gig night out.  But putting them side by side for your own goosebumps it's the Bartel all the way.

grappagreen

Dominic said:

I have been through most of the Carrs .........I eventually tired of my Rambler after a long time because I started to find it a bit harsh in the treble ......I put a Cannabis Rex speaker into it which softened that perfectly but interestingly I have a Lincoln which is extremely sweet in the clean channel and I played it alongside the Rambler Blackface sound forndays on end but the Lincoln won by a mile ......I really like it but the dirty channel is pretty meh .
 I wanted to love a Merc V but every time I play one I find it sounds "boxy "

Completely agree on the Rambler - sounded amazing when I first got it but it just started to grate on me..

I'd love to try a Bartel.

clashcityrocker

Incidentally, has anyone got one of the latest Starwood or Roseland's with the push/pull bright switch on the volume control?
It's supposed to help humbuckers stay more present and retain their sparkle at low volume levels.
If you have such, does it make much difference and is it worth having?

IainGr

It would seem that I do which I had not realised until I read your post! Just tried it briefly, but initial impressions are that it adds more clarity to humbuckers when using overdriven settings. Might also be a benefit in a band mix. 

Nerine

Get a Deluxe Reverb. 

clashcityrocker

IainGr... haha, that's funny you didn't know you had the bright switch!
Many years ago, I had a PRS McCarty and didn't realise it had a coil split until some months after purchase... never used it mind!
Did you recently buy the Starwood head and cab from Coda?

IainGr

yes-thanks for the prompt! There was nothing about it in the instructions or marketing material that I noticed anyway. I went for the Roseland as I wanted them. Otherwise I would have gone for the Starwood. That having been said, with the very effective master you can play the Roseland at home volumes without it feeling at all muzzled.

clashcityrocker

Yes, I now remember you have the Roseland from a previous PM!
I have a Roger Mayer Voodoo-Vibe which incorporates a fantastic trem so am happy to save a few quid and probably go for the Starwood... we'll see!