Combi boiler advice please

gusman2x

So I have a conventional gas boiler and c/h system that’s in generally good repair and order. My hot water cylinder is leaking very slightly round a fitting, but the rest of the ports/fittings look a bit ropey with the putty looking very brittle. On the last boiler service the engineer suggested that the cylinder should be replaced. However, when the owner of the firm called, he said that if we were planning on staying in the house (we are) then we’d probably be better off upgrading to a new combi. His argument was that I don’t know what else will fail on the existing system in the next 1,2,3 years and that the new boiler would be more efficient and have a 12 year warranty. 

So, a new cylinder fitted is £1000 (which I thought was a bit high), and a new combi fitted is £2,500. 

My existing boiler was fitted in 2009, and has generally performed well. I had a flame sensor replaced on it, and I need to replace the 3 way valve myself as it’s sticking. Pipe work is good and tidy. 

So, in people’s opinion would it be worth the extra money to upgrade to a combi, what are the real benefits?

thanks

exocet

Benefits of combi option are:

More space

Never run out of hot water

Lower running costs (not because boiler is any more efficient than your current boiler unless current boiler is not of condensing type). Lower running costs because you only heat the water that you need when you need it.

Downsides could be:

Less reliable than standard boiler

Can't deliver high volumes of hot water in colder weather. This depends on boiler "power" and your expectations with respect to flow rate of hot water.

Removal of hot water tank sometimes = loss of warm airing cupboard. 

more

I think your plumer it taking the pisssss.  It is not difficult to replace the hot water tank . I have replaced a few . Thay cost about £200 to buy and can be replaced in a couple of hours . So £1000 is about double a reasonable price . There is a lot of bad info about when you should replace a boiler . I know a good boiler can be repaired for many years , until the parts are no longer avalble .

sev112

exocet said:

Benefits of combi option are:

More space

Never run out of hot water

Lower running costs (not because boiler is any more efficient than your current boiler unless current boiler is not of condensing type). Lower running costs because you only heat the water that you need when you need it.

Downsides could be:

Less reliable than standard boiler

Can't deliver high volumes of hot water in colder weather. This depends on boiler "power" and your expectations with respect to flow rate of hot water.

Removal of hot water tank sometimes = loss of warm airing cupboard. 

Losing warm airing cupboard is a good spot, we added a small radiator I’m there and now use it for clothes drying in the space

 Secondly the Combi wastes a LOT of water, at best 35sed, usually more of running the taps full bore until hot water comes out.  All of that is high quality treated water going directly to waste !  If anyone has a solution to this, please let me know 

rlw

If the hot water cylinder is a long way from the tap that will waste a lot of water too.

TheMadMick

rlw said:

If the hot water cylinder is a long way from the tap that will waste a lot of water too.

We are looking at replacing our boiler with a combi as the run to the sink is enormously long (no thanks to my wife who had the kitchen replaced and didn't have the hot water re-routed). We also have a small bathroom with airing cupboard where we would put a shower (neither of us are in the 1st flush of youth) if we got a combi. It's all about balance and the compromises you are prepared to make.

Wazmeister

Buy a combi.

Dont buy British boiler.

Dominic

rlw said:

If the hot water cylinder is a long way from the tap that will waste a lot of water too.

Eh ?
It may have to run awhile before it comes through hot but just put a little pump on it 
I would never swap a good conventional system for a Combi because I like a lot of stored hot water and powerful shower pumps ....I don't care about a couple hundred quid savings in a year ;I want a proper shower .
It also depends how many bathrooms you have and the intensity of demand in short time frames.
 Plumber is shitting you........210 insulated cylinder direct or indirect twin coil quick recovery is under £200
the carcass of the heating system will remain pretty much unchanged whether you swap boiler type or not
The only vulnerable parts are the motorised valves and possibly a few minor boiler parts.
Get a Magnaclean fitted if you don't have one 
new cylinder ,if similar size ,should cost about £450 fitted plus immersion 

Dominic

Or you could run a secondary return for the hot water ......all decent systems in larger houses will have this if it's a well designed modern system as it keeps the hot circulating in a loop and is always close to a fawcett point.

thermionic

For combi boilers have a look at heatable.co.uk. I replaced mine last year and their quotes were consistently lower than anywhere else for similar models, by some margin. Also their warranties are 10 years whereas usually the manufacturers’ warranties are only 5. I looked long and hard for a catch but couldn ‘t find one. Their business model is they supply the boilers and the fitting is done by an approved local fitter. I just booked a date on the website and supplied 4-5 photos showing the location of the old boiler and where the flue exits the outside of the house.

russpm

If it’s not broke, don’t fix it!
A replacement hot water cylinder should do it and £1k is way too much!

chillidoggy

I’m a conventional boiler man all the way.

By the time I recoup any efficiency savings from what any new boiler install costs, I’ll be in my grave, so I’m sticking with the one I have. The only limiting factor is spare parts.

Oh, and the wife said to pack my bags if I get rid of the hot water tank in the airing cupboard.

boogieman

I’ve looked at replacing conventional systems with a combi a few times and the big sticking point for me is you can’t have a pumped shower with a combi system. Worth thinking about if you want decent shower pressure but your mains water pressure isn’t that great.

A grand for replacing a h/w cylinder is definitely taking the piss. If it’s only a case of the connections weeping and the actual cylinder and the connector flanges are ok then the joints can be re-made at minimal cost : it would just involve draining down, undoing the pipe and cylinder connectors, cleaning up the threads, putting new ptfe and/or sealing compound on and tightening them up again. The three port valve could be done at the same time so your system isn’t out of action for very long. A plumber could probably do it in half a day. If you’re at all diy minded it would even be a relatively simple job to tackle yourself. 

exocet

Wazmeister said:

Buy a combi.

Dont buy British boiler.

To muddy the waters a little, both Vaillant and Worcester Bosch manufacture in UK, they would be my go to brands for Combi or conventional.

Wazmeister

exocet said:

Wazmeister said:

Buy a combi.

Dont buy British boiler.

To muddy the waters a little, both Vaillant and Worcester Bosch manufacture in UK, they would be my go to brands for Combi or conventional.

That's what I meant really - get a Vaillant or Worcester.

ToneControl

£2500 is very expensive

A cheap but decent combi (Vokera) is less than £500, with a warranty
I'd expect to get it fitted for £600-£700
I had one supplied and fitted to replace an existing combi recently:

We have supplied and fitted a new 25kw vokera boiler and fitted a boiler plus compliant
clock
The cost of this work is £1080.00

Prior to that, I have bought 2 myself for less than £500, paid £500 to fit one as a replacement for a combi, and £600 for one to replace a stored water system like yours

I'd expect 

ToneControl

boogieman said:

I’ve looked at replacing conventional systems with a combi a few times and the big sticking point for me is you can’t have a pumped shower with a combi system. Worth thinking about if you want decent shower pressure but your mains water pressure isn’t that great.

A grand for replacing a h/w cylinder is definitely taking the piss. If it’s only a case of the connections weeping and the actual cylinder and the connector flanges are ok then the joints can be re-made at minimal cost : it would just involve draining down, undoing the pipe and cylinder connectors, cleaning up the threads, putting new ptfe and/or sealing compound on and tightening them up again. The three port valve could be done at the same time so you’re system isn’t out of action for very long. A plumber could probably do it in half a day. If you’re at all diy minded it would even be a relatively simple job to tackle yourself. 

you can get an accumulator storage vessel to store cold water at high pressure, I considered getting one in our last house
Eventually, we found out that a factory 2 miles away was breaking agreements and taking lots of water at the wrong times of day, the pressure increased after we complained

boogieman

ToneControl said:

boogieman said:

I’ve looked at replacing conventional systems with a combi a few times and the big sticking point for me is you can’t have a pumped shower with a combi system. Worth thinking about if you want decent shower pressure but your mains water pressure isn’t that great.

A grand for replacing a h/w cylinder is definitely taking the piss. If it’s only a case of the connections weeping and the actual cylinder and the connector flanges are ok then the joints can be re-made at minimal cost : it would just involve draining down, undoing the pipe and cylinder connectors, cleaning up the threads, putting new ptfe and/or sealing compound on and tightening them up again. The three port valve could be done at the same time so you’re system isn’t out of action for very long. A plumber could probably do it in half a day. If you’re at all diy minded it would even be a relatively simple job to tackle yourself. 

you get a pump in the combi for the hot water
you can get an accumulator storage vessel to store cold water at high pressure, I considered getting one in our last house
Eventually, we found out that a factory 2 miles away was breaking agreements and taking lots of water at the wrong times of day, the pressure increased after we complained

The pump in the boiler is just for circulation though isn’t it? Not for increasing the actual water pressure at the tap. 

ToneControl

boogieman said:

ToneControl said:

boogieman said:

I’ve looked at replacing conventional systems with a combi a few times and the big sticking point for me is you can’t have a pumped shower with a combi system. Worth thinking about if you want decent shower pressure but your mains water pressure isn’t that great.

A grand for replacing a h/w cylinder is definitely taking the piss. If it’s only a case of the connections weeping and the actual cylinder and the connector flanges are ok then the joints can be re-made at minimal cost : it would just involve draining down, undoing the pipe and cylinder connectors, cleaning up the threads, putting new ptfe and/or sealing compound on and tightening them up again. The three port valve could be done at the same time so you’re system isn’t out of action for very long. A plumber could probably do it in half a day. If you’re at all diy minded it would even be a relatively simple job to tackle yourself. 

you get a pump in the combi for the hot water
you can get an accumulator storage vessel to store cold water at high pressure, I considered getting one in our last house
Eventually, we found out that a factory 2 miles away was breaking agreements and taking lots of water at the wrong times of day, the pressure increased after we complained

The pump in the boiler is just for circulation though isn’t it? Not for increasing the actual water pressure at the tap. 

I think you are right, I must have obtained the wrong info years ago!
I'll correct my post

found this though, any use?
Increase Pressure to or from a Combination Boiler - Shower Power Booster

boogieman

ToneControl said:

£2500 is very expensive

A cheap but decent combi (Vokera) is less than £500, with a warranty
I'd expect to get it fitted for £600-£700
I had one supplied and fitted to replace an existing combi recently:

We have supplied and fitted a new 25kw vokera boiler and fitted a boiler plus compliant
clock
The cost of this work is £1080.00

Prior to that, I have bought 2 myself for less than £500, paid £500 to fit one as a replacement for a combi, and £600 for one to replace a stored water system like yours

I'd expect 

I’ve never heard of Vokera boilers to be honest. I doubt you’d get a Vaillant  or Worcester combi supplied and fitted for much less than £2k. My mum had her Vaillant combi put in a couple of years back and it cost £2400. Some quotes were even higher That’s London prices though. 

ToneControl

boogieman said:

ToneControl said:

£2500 is very expensive

A cheap but decent combi (Vokera) is less than £500, with a warranty
I'd expect to get it fitted for £600-£700
I had one supplied and fitted to replace an existing combi recently:

We have supplied and fitted a new 25kw vokera boiler and fitted a boiler plus compliant
clock
The cost of this work is £1080.00

Prior to that, I have bought 2 myself for less than £500, paid £500 to fit one as a replacement for a combi, and £600 for one to replace a stored water system like yours

I'd expect 

I’ve never heard of Vokera boilers to be honest. I doubt you’d get a Vaillant  or Worcester combi supplied and fitted for much less than £2k. My mum had her Vaillant combi put in a couple of years back and it cost £2400. Some quotes were even higher That’s London prices though. 

I just checked my trade supplier

Worcester Greenstar Combi Boiler 30kw

£910 + VAT = £1092
let's say £650 to fit: total £1742

I've bought Worcester Bosch for my house and the last one, and to be frank have had lots of problems, we had no hot water for 2 weeks once, since then we've had a permanent service/repair contract with Worcester, since the parts seem hard for other fitters to obtain. The current boiler is overspecced for this house, yet seems to need major replacement parts every year

Hence me taking the advice of gas fitters on my other houses, they recommend Vokera as a good cheap brand, there was another brand too, not sure. Vokera comes with 5 or 6 year warranty as standard