Potential break away European super football league

Jackobean

guitars4you said:

bloodandtears said:

hard enough watching spurs be nearly runs year after year... they'll be whipping boys in that company...  grim(mer) times ahead.

and no Jose - just sacked

Very strange timing - cup final next week, and seemingly no replacement lined up.
Spurs trying to bury a bad news story? Or was Mou intending to speak out over the ESL?

scrumhalf

Apparently Jose refused to take training this morning in protest at the club's involvement in the breakaway league. There was a row and he was either given the tin tack or there was an amicable agreement for him to depart.

Ryan Mason is taking over as caretaker. 

An interesting twist, eh? 

guitars4you

UnclePsychosis said:

crunchman said:

The problem is that most of the money will be from elsewhere in the world.  Fans in this country don't care much about the Champions League but it is a big money spinner around the world.  The 6 English clubs involved in this probably think they will make more money from that than they will lose locally.

Spot on. For everyone other than a few hundred thousand British people the Premier League "is"  Liverpool/Man Utd/Chelsea/Man City/Arsenal. The other clubs don't matter globally. 

But in many ways that is crap

Chelsea don't even have the 3rd best ground in London - wasn't that long ago that Chelsea were not even the 3rd best team in London let alone an elite in Europe

20 years ago Man City struggled to beat Gillingham 

And what a joy for football that only a few years ago Leicester won the PL

The point is that the current system might have its fault - But dreams can and do happen as teams can come and go - It is a joy that the likes of Bournemouth can join the PL, even if it is only for a few seasons - Sure, Man U is a global success both on/off the pitch, but it is more enjoyable for the good of the game that the minnows can take them on from time to time and even win 

Man City + Arsenal's previous success in Europe is barely better than that of Newcastle, or Leeds, let alone Villa and Forest - So yes today they have money but hardly a  powerhouse of Europe - IMO they have no right to protect themselves from a bad day at the office and no relegation 

30 years ago we all watched the PL and as I mentioned above First year of the PL and the top 6 were Man Utd, Villa, Norwich, Blackburn, QPR and Liverpool 

It is the fact that it is a closed shop that is so wrong 

Chuffola

Liverpool fan here and agree 100% with G Nev, who impresses me everytime he speaks.

Disgusted with the whole thing and will kill football for me if it happens. Football has already, to a large extent, lost it's soul but this would be the killer blow - its been a hard enough watch this season without any fans, imagine what a "super" league would be like with none of the real fans interested?

I'm hopeful, though, that this is all a negotiating tactic to try to bend the CL to suit the "big" clubs even more - that in itself is sickening but less painful than the thought of playing in a meaningless league with no relegation. Next it'll be a draft format for the best young players, 4 quarters and time outs. 

Unfortunately, every club will sell its soul for big money owners and this is the result.  I can't see it happening but if it does then all six clubs should be heavily punished - including expulsion from the PL. 

Surely the players won't want this?

guitars4you

scrumhalf said:

Jackobean said:

Very strange timing - cup final next week, and seemingly no replacement lined up.
Spurs trying to bury a bad news story? Or was Mou intending to speak out over the ESL?

. There was a row and he was either given the tin tack or there was an amicable agreement for him to depart.

Ryan Mason is taking over as caretaker. 

An interesting twist, eh? 

That would be so good if true  - I mentioned earlier that it would be great to see someone with principle like Klopp/Pep (if they have principle) to speak out and walk 

I recall he made such a big thing, maybe somewhat egotistical on his part as the chosen one, that he could take  a small club like Porto and win the CL against all the big boys - Such stories can't/won't happen again with such a closed shop of elite clubs  - If that means as much as he said, then I glad he can walk away,- Assuming the above is true 

UnclePsychosis

guitars4you said:

UnclePsychosis said:

crunchman said:

The problem is that most of the money will be from elsewhere in the world.  Fans in this country don't care much about the Champions League but it is a big money spinner around the world.  The 6 English clubs involved in this probably think they will make more money from that than they will lose locally.

Spot on. For everyone other than a few hundred thousand British people the Premier League "is"  Liverpool/Man Utd/Chelsea/Man City/Arsenal. The other clubs don't matter globally. 

But in many ways that is crap

Chelsea don't even have the 3rd best ground in London - wasn't that long ago that Chelsea were not even the 3rd best team in London let alone an elite in Europe

20 years ago Man City struggled to beat Gillingham 

And what a joy for football that only a few years ago Leicester won the PL

The point is that the current system might have its fault - But dreams can and do happen as teams can come and go - It is a joy that the likes of Bournemouth can join the PL, even if it is only for a few seasons - Sure, Man U is a global success both on/off the pitch, but it is more enjoyable for the good of the game that the minnows can take them on from time to time and even win 

Man City + Arsenal's previous success in Europe is barely better than that of Newcastle, or Leeds, let alone Villa and Forest - So yes today they have money but hardly a  powerhouse of Europe - IMO they have no right to protect themselves from a bad day at the office and no relegation 

30 years ago we all watched the PL and as I mentioned above First year of the PL and the top 6 were Man Utd, Villa, Norwich, Blackburn, QPR and Liverpool 

It is the fact that it is a closed shop that is so wrong 

You're talking like a fan with a prior attachment to your team, rather than an accountant. 

Twenty years ago insane money hadn't reached football. What Forest and Villa did in the 70s and 80s is irrelevant to football in 2021---What gives City the right to protect themselves is money, not history. They've bought their way to the top and now intend to pull the ladder up. 

To paraphrase a thing I saw elsewhere that I agree with - I watch US sports. I am more likely to watch if there's a 'big game'. I don't really care if there is relegation or not. There are hundreds of millions (if not billions) of people across the globe who have exactly the same relationship with European football. These people don't even notice that Bournemouth or Catania or Mallorca are spending a year in the top flight. They will however notice that Liverpool are playing Barcelona and tune in accordingly. 

None of this makes any sense to us as fans. You have to view it through the lens of money. It's 100% about money and nothing to do with history, supporters, or any of that romantic stuff. 

crunchman

UnclePsychosis said:

bloodandtears said:

hard enough watching spurs be nearly runs year after year... they'll be whipping boys in that company...  grim(mer) times ahead.

Yep, but money talks.

According to Forbes, the "worst" team in the NFL is still valued at $2bn+. And they can't get relegated. Its a cash cow. 

At the same time, that worst team could win the Superbowl in a few years time because the system there is designed to keep it competitive.

Tampa Bay were the worst team, with the first pick in the draft, in 2015.  Now they are Superbowl champions.

The Rams picked first in 2016, and made it to the Superbowl at the end of the 2018 season.  The Eagles picked second in 2016, and won the Superbowl at the end of the 2017 season.

These days. I would far rather watch the NFL as it is genuinely competitive.  No-one knows who will win next season.  Kansas are the favourites as they have Pat Mahomes, but his $40m a year contract eats up a lot of salary cap and restricts what they can put around him, so it stays competitive.

For me, the salary cap may a bigger part of that parity in the NFL than the draft.  If we ever want football to be properly competitive again, we need a salary cap.

UnclePsychosis

@crunchman I sort of agree.

I'd wager that if the ESL takes off, then a salary cap would become a thing in short order. None of these owners wants to be spunking stupid salaries, so they'll keep it manageable - and if it's a closed shop none of them can get kicked out of it.

RaymondLin

There is going to be a lot of lawsuits from everyone if the footballing bodies starts handing out bans, points deduction, national teams selection etc

earwighoney

crunchman said:

UnclePsychosis said:

bloodandtears said:

hard enough watching spurs be nearly runs year after year... they'll be whipping boys in that company...  grim(mer) times ahead.

Yep, but money talks.

According to Forbes, the "worst" team in the NFL is still valued at $2bn+. And they can't get relegated. Its a cash cow. 

At the same time, that worst team could win the Superbowl in a few years time because the system there is designed to keep it competitive.

Tampa Bay were the worst team, with the first pick in the draft, in 2015.  Now they are Superbowl champions.

The Rams picked first in 2016, and made it to the Superbowl at the end of the 2018 season.  The Eagles picked second in 2016, and won the Superbowl at the end of the 2017 season.

These days. I would far rather watch the NFL as it is genuinely competitive.  No-one knows who will win next season.  Kansas are the favourites as they have Pat Mahomes, but his $40m a year contract eats up a lot of salary cap and restricts what they can put around him, so it stays competitive.

For me, the salary cap may a bigger part of that parity in the NFL than the draft.  If we ever want football to be properly competitive again, we need a salary cap.

Agree about preferring to watch NFL,but I disagree about Kansas being favourites, with Mahomes salary, it's unlikely they'll the Superb Owl for a good while as they no funds to pay a decent OL, and without Fisher/Swartz they struggled, they were cut too without any quality replacements coming in.

NFL is genuinely competitive and teams can come from nowhere with the draft, I thought the Browns were a lot of fun to watch this year.

Also, the draft makes it enjoyable for fans to watch shit teams as they get given immense talents, eg Joe Burrow to Bengals, Justin Herbert to Chargers.

The greed of English football can't be compared to the NFL, it's a very different set up. NFL has no comparable pyramid.

Hattigol

There's a horrible dilemma for the Premier League (and other Leagues) as well as for the FA, UEFA and FIFA.

Take these teams out of those competitions - which is what every right-thinking football fan would want - and what are you left with? You still think Sky and everyone else are going to want to pay top dollar for a League where Super Sunday consists of Everton v Leicester and West Ham v Villa? Not a chance. Next time the TV deals are up for renewal, the figures would be reduced colossally.

The ESL hold all the cards. Can/will the government do anything about it? I seriously doubt it.

axisus

To be honest I don't think that the Prem can stiff the big clubs over this, it is they that bring the mega bucks in. TV sales will slump if the big teams aren't punching it out at the top of the league. 

guitars4you

UnclePsychosis said:

guitars4you said:

UnclePsychosis said:

crunchman said:

The problem is that most of the money will be from elsewhere in the world.  Fans in this country don't care much about the Champions League but it is a big money spinner around the world.  The 6 English clubs involved in this probably think they will make more money from that than they will lose locally.

Spot on. For everyone other than a few hundred thousand British people the Premier League "is"  Liverpool/Man Utd/Chelsea/Man City/Arsenal. The other clubs don't matter globally. 

But in many ways that is crap

Chelsea don't even have the 3rd best ground in London - wasn't that long ago that Chelsea were not even the 3rd best team in London let alone an elite in Europe

20 years ago Man City struggled to beat Gillingham 

And what a joy for football that only a few years ago Leicester won the PL

The point is that the current system might have its fault - But dreams can and do happen as teams can come and go - It is a joy that the likes of Bournemouth can join the PL, even if it is only for a few seasons - Sure, Man U is a global success both on/off the pitch, but it is more enjoyable for the good of the game that the minnows can take them on from time to time and even win 

Man City + Arsenal's previous success in Europe is barely better than that of Newcastle, or Leeds, let alone Villa and Forest - So yes today they have money but hardly a  powerhouse of Europe - IMO they have no right to protect themselves from a bad day at the office and no relegation 

30 years ago we all watched the PL and as I mentioned above First year of the PL and the top 6 were Man Utd, Villa, Norwich, Blackburn, QPR and Liverpool 

It is the fact that it is a closed shop that is so wrong 

You're talking like a fan with a prior attachment to your team, rather than an accountant. 

Twenty years ago insane money hadn't reached football. What Forest and Villa did in the 70s and 80s is irrelevant to football in 2021---What gives City the right to protect themselves is money, not history. They've bought their way to the top and now intend to pull the ladder up. 

To paraphrase a thing I saw elsewhere that I agree with - I watch US sports. I am more likely to watch if there's a 'big game'. I don't really care if there is relegation or not. There are hundreds of millions (if not billions) of people across the globe who have exactly the same relationship with European football. These people don't even notice that Bournemouth or Catania or Mallorca are spending a year in the top flight. They will however notice that Liverpool are playing Barcelona and tune in accordingly. 

None of this makes any sense to us as fans. You have to view it through the lens of money. It's 100% about money and nothing to do with history, supporters, or any of that romantic stuff. 

On a simple principle that the biggest have the right to be bigger, then just let Amazon run the world - The elite have, IMO, no right to demand/except a league, with no relegation because they had a bad year - That is not sport - What would we think if the top 10 ranked tennis in the world demand a place in the last 16 of all major tournaments etc etc - The All Blacks demand right of access to the last 4 of the world cup etc etc 

Let them have their big league - But they can sod off and let football get back to its grass root 

UEFA/FIFA are corrupt and I dare say the EFL and PL are not exactly right about everything, but it still allows a form of competition - A closed shop is just pure greed + a  form of corporate fascism

guitars4you

Good to see below

Bundesliga club Borussia Dortmund have said they and German rivals Bayern Munich both rejected proposals to form a breakaway league.

In a statement on Monday, Dortmund chairman Hans-Joachim Watzke said that the members of the European Club Association (ECA) had met on Sunday evening and expressed "a clear opinion to reject the foundation of a Super League".

He added that the two German clubs on the ECA board, Bayern and Dortmund, had taken "100 percent" the same position "in all discussions".

guitars4you

Hattigol said:

There's a horrible dilemma for the Premier League (and other Leagues) as well as for the FA, UEFA and FIFA.

Take these teams out of those competitions - which is what every right-thinking football fan would want - and what are you left with? You still think Sky and everyone else are going to want to pay top dollar for a League where Super Sunday consists of Everton v Leicester and West Ham v Villa? Not a chance. Next time the TV deals are up for renewal, the figures would be reduced colossally.

The ESL hold all the cards. Can/will the government do anything about it? I seriously doubt it.

axisus said:

To be honest I don't think that the Prem can stiff the big clubs over this, it is they that bring the mega bucks in. TV sales will slump if the big teams aren't punching it out at the top of the league. 

The rights of Sky etc will be adjusted - But the game can still exist at a fair and sporting level for all

The FA CUP has already been watered down by the big clubs putting out a B team and under minding the competition - But it still goes on - Sooner or later it can be re-established with the pride and honour it deserved - The fact that (an elite) Arsenal put out a piss poor performance against Soton deserves to be ignored, so let a proud Newcastle and Sunderland put out 2 teams who want to play the game with pride and professionalism and 100,000 will watch it and enjoy it

As I said above 

The elite have, IMO, no right to demand/except a league, with no relegation because they had a bad year - That is not sport - What would we think if the top 10 ranked tennis players in the world demand a place in the last 16 of all major tournaments etc etc - The All Blacks demand right of access to the last 4 of the world cup etc etc - The Top 10 golfers demanded no avoiding the cut after 2 rounds - Mercedes demand a front row place at every Grand Prix etc etc etc etc 

This new elite league is not about sport - It is about the right to defend an established power base 

Just hope UEFA, FIFA  and national bodies etc stand their ground and show who is the boss

As it has been mentioned before and Gary N echoed the same thought, that the right for the elite to moan about loss revenue during a global academic is piss poor excuse, when the likes of Macclesfield Town have to fight for every £ every week 

crunchman

It might be illegal:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/04/19/european-super-league-announcement-statement-reaction-live-latest/

Here is an excerpt:

There is a “massive risk” that the new European Super League could be blocked under EU sports law, with one leading sports lawyer only rating the chances of it being allowed as “50-50”, reports Tim Wigmore.

The new European Super League is planned to have guaranteed spots for 15 of the 20 clubs, who would be completely exempt from relegation. As such, the entire competition could be barred by European Union competition law. 

“My instinct is under the current legal framework and approach that it is 50-50,” said Darren Bailey, a lawyer and consultant to Charles Russell Speechlys’ sports group who was formerly the Football Association’s director of football governance and regulation.

In 2018, Uefa and the EU signed a new Memorandum of Understanding. The agreement stated that the Council of Europe and Uefa recognise that the European sports model “is based on sporting and financial solidarity mechanisms” citing “open competitions” and explicitly mentioning “the principle of promotion and relegation”.

Bailey said that this agreement could create scope for a case against the Super League - either going through the European Commission or even being initiated by the Commission themselves.

UnclePsychosis

guitars4you said:

UnclePsychosis said:

guitars4you said:

UnclePsychosis said:

crunchman said:

The problem is that most of the money will be from elsewhere in the world.  Fans in this country don't care much about the Champions League but it is a big money spinner around the world.  The 6 English clubs involved in this probably think they will make more money from that than they will lose locally.

Spot on. For everyone other than a few hundred thousand British people the Premier League "is"  Liverpool/Man Utd/Chelsea/Man City/Arsenal. The other clubs don't matter globally. 

But in many ways that is crap

Chelsea don't even have the 3rd best ground in London - wasn't that long ago that Chelsea were not even the 3rd best team in London let alone an elite in Europe

20 years ago Man City struggled to beat Gillingham 

And what a joy for football that only a few years ago Leicester won the PL

The point is that the current system might have its fault - But dreams can and do happen as teams can come and go - It is a joy that the likes of Bournemouth can join the PL, even if it is only for a few seasons - Sure, Man U is a global success both on/off the pitch, but it is more enjoyable for the good of the game that the minnows can take them on from time to time and even win 

Man City + Arsenal's previous success in Europe is barely better than that of Newcastle, or Leeds, let alone Villa and Forest - So yes today they have money but hardly a  powerhouse of Europe - IMO they have no right to protect themselves from a bad day at the office and no relegation 

30 years ago we all watched the PL and as I mentioned above First year of the PL and the top 6 were Man Utd, Villa, Norwich, Blackburn, QPR and Liverpool 

It is the fact that it is a closed shop that is so wrong 

You're talking like a fan with a prior attachment to your team, rather than an accountant. 

Twenty years ago insane money hadn't reached football. What Forest and Villa did in the 70s and 80s is irrelevant to football in 2021---What gives City the right to protect themselves is money, not history. They've bought their way to the top and now intend to pull the ladder up. 

To paraphrase a thing I saw elsewhere that I agree with - I watch US sports. I am more likely to watch if there's a 'big game'. I don't really care if there is relegation or not. There are hundreds of millions (if not billions) of people across the globe who have exactly the same relationship with European football. These people don't even notice that Bournemouth or Catania or Mallorca are spending a year in the top flight. They will however notice that Liverpool are playing Barcelona and tune in accordingly. 

None of this makes any sense to us as fans. You have to view it through the lens of money. It's 100% about money and nothing to do with history, supporters, or any of that romantic stuff. 

On a simple principle that the biggest have the right to be bigger, then just let Amazon run the world - The elite have, IMO, no right to demand/except a league, with no relegation because they had a bad year - That is not sport - What would we think if the top 10 ranked tennis in the world demand a place in the last 16 of all major tournaments etc etc - The All Blacks demand right of access to the last 4 of the world cup etc etc 

Let them have their big league - But they can sod off and let football get back to its grass root 

UEFA/FIFA are corrupt and I dare say the EFL and PL are not exactly right about everything, but it still allows a form of competition - A closed shop is just pure greed + a  form of corporate fascism

I don't disagree with you, other than the hyperbole about fascism. 

But then I'm a football fan, not a multi-billion pound business which exists to make oodles and oodles of money. 

Millions of NFL fans would disagree that a closed shop isn't sport, by the way. 

guitars4you

crunchman said:

It might be illegal:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/04/19/european-super-league-announcement-statement-reaction-live-latest/

Here is an excerpt:

There is a “massive risk” that the new European Super League could be blocked under EU sports law, with one leading sports lawyer only rating the chances of it being allowed as “50-50”, reports Tim Wigmore.

The new European Super League is planned to have guaranteed spots for 15 of the 20 clubs, who would be completely exempt from relegation. As such, the entire competition could be barred by European Union competition law. 

“My instinct is under the current legal framework and approach that it is 50-50,” said Darren Bailey, a lawyer and consultant to Charles Russell Speechlys’ sports group who was formerly the Football Association’s director of football governance and regulation.

In 2018, Uefa and the EU signed a new Memorandum of Understanding. The agreement stated that the Council of Europe and Uefa recognise that the European sports model “is based on sporting and financial solidarity mechanisms” citing “open competitions” and explicitly mentioning “the principle of promotion and relegation”.

Bailey said that this agreement could create scope for a case against the Super League - either going through the European Commission or even being initiated by the Commission themselves.

interesting

Gassage

LEAVE MEANS LEAVE.

mrkb

guitars4you said:

crunchman said:

It might be illegal:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/04/19/european-super-league-announcement-statement-reaction-live-latest/

Here is an excerpt:

There is a “massive risk” that the new European Super League could be blocked under EU sports law, with one leading sports lawyer only rating the chances of it being allowed as “50-50”, reports Tim Wigmore.

The new European Super League is planned to have guaranteed spots for 15 of the 20 clubs, who would be completely exempt from relegation. As such, the entire competition could be barred by European Union competition law. 

“My instinct is under the current legal framework and approach that it is 50-50,” said Darren Bailey, a lawyer and consultant to Charles Russell Speechlys’ sports group who was formerly the Football Association’s director of football governance and regulation.

In 2018, Uefa and the EU signed a new Memorandum of Understanding. The agreement stated that the Council of Europe and Uefa recognise that the European sports model “is based on sporting and financial solidarity mechanisms” citing “open competitions” and explicitly mentioning “the principle of promotion and relegation”.

Bailey said that this agreement could create scope for a case against the Super League - either going through the European Commission or even being initiated by the Commission themselves.

interesting

But we've left the EU, so we can have a "super league" with just the 6 English clubs........ lol, that would be crap.