Name That Chord Game

Philtre

Following on from this discussion...

C# in the bass with a C, E and G triad.

Given that C# is the root we then have:

C - major 7

E - minor 3

G - flat 5

So C#minMa7b5 or C#mMa7b5

Of course, it's more practical to say C over C# or C/C#, but this kind of thing is a great source of differences of opinion...

JohnCordy

A C major with a b9. It's a diminished chord init

Generally it would also have a Bb, so C7b9.

It also can't have both a C# and a C in terms of being musically correct, so that's a C and a Db.

Also - since it's diminished, you could also think of it as 3 other chords if you do choose to have the Db as the root, it could also be Edim or Gdim or Bbdim

What you decide upon would probably depend on what it resolves to - what follows this chord?

Stuckfast

Depends on context doesn't it? I can imagine it functioning as some sort of rootless A dominant seventh in some situations. 

stickyfiddle

Stuckfast said:

Depends on context doesn't it? I can imagine it functioning as some sort of rootless A dominant seventh in some situations. 

+1

You probably also need to know what exact notes are there in what order

Philtre

No context, just those 4 notes with C# being the root. This is an ambient piece with just one chord...

> You probably also need to know what exact notes are there in what order

ArchtopDave

@Philtre has stated that C♯ is the Root Note, so this has to remain unchanged. In the other Thread that @Philtre alluded to, I put forward a concept of flexible thinking that I call Musical Mental Gymnastics, which I think very much applies here.

As a consequence of C♯ remaining, C needs to become B♯. Leave E and G unchanged.
This gives you C♯. E. G. B♯.  C♯dim/maj7. An unusual, but perfectly feasible chord.

However, if G becomes F♯♯, then you have C♯. E. B♯. F♯♯. The chord being C♯min/maj7add♯11.

Carry on and turn E into D♯♯. You now have C♯. B♯. D♯♯. F♯♯. The chord being C♯maj7add♯9♯11(no third)

Given that @Philtre has shown the position of the notes on the piano above, and the fact that the chord has an ambient nature, I suspect the last chord is the most likely one, as chords without a Third have a undefined sound to them because they are neither Major nor Minor. 

Philtre

Good points @ArchtopDave

There's clearly more than one way to name a chord. In this case I would simply write C/C# (C major over C# pedal note) or C/Db.

There's a transcription of Frank Zappa's "Zoot Allures" guitar part transcribed by Guthrie Govan where there are regular triads with a different root note like this one and Govan names them C#/D, B/E, D/G and so on. See https://www.afka.net/Mags/Guitar_Techniques.htm

Edit:

I like @ArchtopDave 's idea here:

As a consequence of C♯ remaining, C needs to become B♯. Leave E and G unchanged.
This gives you C♯. E. G. B♯.  C♯dim/maj7. An unusual, but perfectly feasible chord.

If we take just the C#, E and G we do indeed get a C#dim which only leaves us with the C natural (or B#) which we can bung on at the end.

viz

I like the term musical mental gymnastics - thanks Archtop Dave! And in honour of your username, one musical mental gymnastics move that I like on this chord is in an A->D cadence, from A(alt) add5 to Dm.

So it’d be an A chord in 1st inversion, with a 5th and a 7th; it also has a minor 3rd, the C. (the altered scale contains both the major 3rd and the minor 3rd, although the major 3rd is actually a diminished 4th but fuck that. Oh and the proper altered scale doesn’t have a perfect 5th but fuck that too). And on the way to the Dm, you woul ... sod it, here’s a vid:

https://youtu.be/o_Wa4wubddA

Prize for the person who spotted me misnaming the C

Philtre

@viz Fine effort for making an actual video, well done that man! I can see where you're going with that and, as others have said, the context can define the nature of the chord. So you're going for an A dominant thingy into a D minor via a Bb note onto the A note of the D minor chord. OK, why not?

viz

Philtre said:

@viz Fine effort for making an actual video, well done that man! I can see where you're going with that and, as others have said, the context can define the nature of the chord. So you're going for an A dominant thingy into a D minor via a Bb note onto the A note of the D minor chord. OK, why not?

Cheers and why not indeed, like I think Stuckfast also eluded to.

Philtre

Somebody else's turn now to come up with a new challenge in....Name that Chord!

viz

76766x

B D# A C# F

I call it the Lately chord, it's a sort of sub for an Fdom7 before a Bb. But what actually is it?! 3:31 here:

Philtre

viz said:

76766x

B D# A C# F

You could call it a B9b5 but the notes form part of a whole tone scale - A - B - C# - D# - F - so it feels like it should resolve onto something else.

viz

Philtre said:

viz said:

76766x

B D# A C# F

You could call it a B9b5 but the notes form part of a whole tone scale - A - B - C# - D# - F - so it feels like it should resolve onto something else.

Oooh yes, I never noticed it's an anagram of a tone scale! In the context of Lately it's a sort of F7(alt) with a minor 6th, but it's all over a bass B note which is what causes the tri-tone substitution, but it's so oddly stacked and there are notes added and missing (for example it lacks the F in the root and it has that m6) that it's a very juicy chord.

viz

Right someone else have a go, this is good stuff

Brad

viz said:

76766x

B D# A C# F

I call it the Lately chord, it's a sort of sub for an Fdom7 before a Bb. But what actually is it?! 3:31 here:

C9#11 (it’s all a semitone up BTW )

As you say it’s a tritone sub for the V chord in a
ii - V - I. It would ‘ordinarily’ be F#7#5 etc, but using C in the bass creates that chromatic movement from C#m7 to B. 

F#7#5 and C7#11 both come from.... G Melodic Minor. 

Can’t beat Stevie for harmonic goodness. 

Brad

Philtre said:

So C#minMa7b5 or C#mMa7b5

Of course, it's more practical to say C over C# or C/C#, but this kind of thing is a great source of differences of opinion...

I would certainly appreciate seeing C/Db on a chart rather than CmMaj7b5 !!

viz

Brad said:

viz said:

76766x

B D# A C# F

I call it the Lately chord, it's a sort of sub for an Fdom7 before a Bb. But what actually is it?! 3:31 here:

C9#11 (it’s all a semitone up BTW )

As you say it’s a tritone sub for the V chord in a
ii - V - I. It would ‘ordinarily’ be F#7#5 etc, but using C in the bass creates that chromatic movement from C#m7 to B. 

F#7#5 and C7#11 both come from.... G Melodic Minor. 

Can’t beat Stevie for harmonic goodness. 

Absolutely right! I’m ashamed to say I always play it in C but yep! He’s a pianist so Db - thanks! (Should have listened to my own link lol)

Brad

viz said:

Brad said:

viz said:

76766x

B D# A C# F

I call it the Lately chord, it's a sort of sub for an Fdom7 before a Bb. But what actually is it?! 3:31 here:

C9#11 (it’s all a semitone up BTW )

As you say it’s a tritone sub for the V chord in a
ii - V - I. It would ‘ordinarily’ be F#7#5 etc, but using C in the bass creates that chromatic movement from C#m7 to B. 

F#7#5 and C7#11 both come from.... G Melodic Minor. 

Can’t beat Stevie for harmonic goodness. 

Absolutely right! I’m ashamed to say I always play it in C but yep! He’s a pianist so Db - thanks! (Should have listened to my own link lol)

Ah, happens to us all you were on the money as per usual  

 A blind pianist no less, I’ve yet to play a Stevie song that was written in C or Am... anyone wanting to play in unfriendly keys for guitar, without delving into jazz, could do much worse than learning some Stevie tunes. Anyway back on topic...

viz

Brad said:

Ah, happens to us all you were on the money as per usual  

 A blind pianist no less, I’ve yet to play a Stevie song that was written in C or Am... anyone wanting to play in unfriendly keys for guitar, without delving into jazz, could do much worse than learning some Stevie tunes. Anyway back on topic...

Exactly! It is great in C on guitar though coz there are some lovely open voicings on the C and the D minors etc. Maybe next time I do it live (if there is such a thing) I’ll transpose my guitar. Anyway yep, come on, gis an interesting chord to chat about. 

TheBigDipper

Brad said:

Philtre said:

So C#minMa7b5 or C#mMa7b5

Of course, it's more practical to say C over C# or C/C#, but this kind of thing is a great source of differences of opinion...

I would certainly appreciate seeing C/Db on a chart rather than CmMaj7b5 !!

It's a lot easier for me to remember how to form a C triad and stick a Db bass note underneath, that's for sure. Despite me starting the thread about "min 3rd vs b3", when I converted to electric guitar from classical, I learned rhythm parts for tunes from chord charts, like most of us did, I expect.