Getting a decent guitar sound with a band - CONFUSED (including Helix question)

JMS96

I've only played in a band for the last couple of years, despite playing guitar since I was a child. But I'm really struggling to get a consistently clear sound, and everyone's complaining that I'm too loud. I know this is a perennial issue, but I really need the collective wisdom of tFB to help me through this problem, which is consuming me, and give me some useful practical advice about 'cutting through'. I have many question that I thought about (and decided against) putting in different threads. Instead (with apologies for the length of this...) here are what I think are the key ones. BTW, we are a four piece covers band with just 1 guitar, bass and drums.

CHOICE OF GUITAR

I'm a total poser, so I've been playing my Ric 360 and more recently a Gibson 330. But yesterday I turned up with a tele, and everything seemed a lot easier even on the neck pickup. Is it just a fact that a tele is always going to work better/easier in a live band setting? Or do you just need to know how to dial in for any guitar?

HELIX SETTINGS

I'm set on using a Helix for effects, into an amp, and I have presets for every song. These are mostly set at home using guesswork and trial and error. So I have lots of different combination of pedals and snapshots. What I find is that on some days some songs just sound better than others. Am I going about this the wrong way?

Would it be easier to settle on specific effects/presets that work better for my set up and not worry too much about approximating the sound of the original song? - ie just use three drive pedals that I know will sound good with the guitar and amp and making the song fit those?

AMP

I'm using a Marshall SV20H into a 2x12.It sounds good and cuts through better than a Fender 68 CVR, I think. But it's really loud! I set it clean on 2 and everyone's complaining. How is that?!?

Any other advice gratefully received!

Musicwolf

Have you tried the basics first such as repositioning your amp relative to you / the rest of the band?  If you thought that you were too loud you would have simply turned down.  If others say that you are too loud but you don't agree then the solution is for them to hear less / you to hear more i.e. turn the amp away from them but to face you.

You want to present a balanced mix to the audience but that's not always what each musician wants to hear.

The issue might be more about tone but rule out the basics first.

Moe_Zambeek

Closed back or open back cab? Which speakers? Pointing at whom?

What happens if you ditch the Helix and just go for clean(ish), overdriven and boosted for solos?

I wonder if you're too loud because treble, or too loud because midrange. 

Also 2 on the volume on a 20 watt amp doesn't on the face of it sound like it should be drowning out the whole band, are you a quiet band as a whole?

Edit to add: others obviously differ but my experience with Rics in my setups was overbearing treble and ear fatigue, when used for rock music anyway. That can be good in some circumstances but for me if the amp was not being pushed hard and compressing it was unbearably spiky.

monquixote

Teles tend to cut really well. 

I don't have a huge amount of experience with Rics, but I do remember being in a band where the guitarist switched from a Ric to a Jazzmaster and it cut through a lot better.

I would avoid programming hundreds of patches for all the different songs it's totally unnecessary and it's going to just make your job much harder. No one gives a shit about you nailing the exact sound of a record and it's going to make you sound worse than if you had 3 or 4 sounds that you'd really nailed and worked well.
I've worked in professional level cover bands with one guitar, a clean amp two overdrives and a delay, or a modeller with 3 presets and that was covering a huge variety of tracks

If you are working on these patches at home they are going to be EQed for home and not for a band. Listen to some isolated guitar parts from famous songs and you will hear they often sound really fizzy and thin, but amazing in the context of the record.

I have no idea what your guitar tone sounds like, but generally good advice is less bass, less gain and more mids.

Other advice is get a kick back stand to point your amp at your head as an amp blasting out at your shoes will be louder to your bandmates than it is to you.

JMS96

All of this is brilliant advice, thanks

Musicwolf said:

Have you tried the basics first such as repositioning your amp relative to you / the rest of the band?  If you thought that you were too loud you would have simply turned down.  If others say that you are too loud but you don't agree then the solution is for them to hear less / you to hear more i.e. turn the amp away from them but to face you.

Exactly. I am only vaguely aware of this, and I think I've been standing right in front of the bass amp.

Moe_Zambeek said:

Closed back or open back cab? Which speakers? Pointing at whom?

Also 2 on the volume on a 20 watt amp doesn't on the face of it sound like it should be drowning out the whole band, are you a quiet band as a whole?

It's a closed back with H Creamback and V30. Pointing thoughtlessly into the middle of the room. 

I don't think we're very quiet. Not got much to go on, but we have a bit of ringing ears after a couple of hours.

monquixote said:

I would avoid programming hundreds of patches for all the different songs it's totally unnecessary and it's going to just make your job much harder. No one gives a shit about you nailing the exact sound of a record and it's going to make you sound worse than if you had 3 or 4 sounds that you'd really nailed and worked well.
I've worked in professional level cover bands with one guitar, a clean amp two overdrives and a delay, or a modeller with 3 presets and that was covering a huge variety of tracks

Great advice, thanks.

Wisdoms all around! thanks 

Roland

You don’t say what style of music you’re playing, but the Ric suggests it’s not very heavy. Playing on your own and playing in a band are two different things. To build your experience of getting a consistent good sound in a band setting I’d do the following.

1. Amp turned towards your head. If there’s space I’d have it on the floor angled up like a monitor. If there’s not enough space then on a chair angled up.
2. Use the Tele. It’s easier to get a good sound because it cuts through without getting as loud, particularly with overdriven sounds. You may have to cut the top end if it’s too cutting, but that’s easier than raising the volume of a 335 or Les Paul which doesn’t cut as well.
3. In the Helix use an EQ to block everything below 125hz, so that you stay out of the bassist’s way. This might sound thin at home, but live you might need to block from even higher. 

4. Minimise and standardise the number of sounds you’re using, and minimise effect levels. The fewer permutations you have to manage the quicker you’ll get them sorted. For example, no more than four amp sounds: clean, edgy, crunchy, and full blown lead; one reverb setting at no more than 20%; one chorus; one wah etc. You can add variations, one at a time, once you’ve got a firm basis. 

5. Play fewer notes. Use partial chords rather than the full six, which will leave more space. Simplify fills, the more notes you cram the harder it is to follow what you’re playing, in the louder you want it to be.

FarleyUK

JMS96 said:

...

I don't think we're very quiet. Not got much to go on, but we have a bit of ringing ears after a couple of hours.

Best advice I can give you - get some attenuating ear plugs.

Seriously.

Rocker

I too would be concerned about ringing ears.  You need ear plugs to save the hearing you have left.  Don't skimp on this, get the best ear plugs you can.

Slash'N'burn

I have the same amp as you with a 2x12 - you’re right it does cut through. I use it with an attenuator though at home, I’d really recommend one, then you can get the full range of tones and more compression with the volume at 3-4-5 and beyond - it’s glorious around 4. You’re right it’s very loud at 2, but doesn’t get that much louder above 3, the attenuator helps give more control. There’s actually a powerbrake on eBay at the moment with a sensible starting bid! 

I took a 30watt combo to a practice session the other day and didn’t take my attenuator - it was a small room so I couldn’t get the master volume above 2-3 without being too loud - didn’t sound as good as usual, too clean without the power amp valves working hard.

JMS96

Slash'N'burn said:

I have the same amp as you with a 2x12 - you’re right it does cut through. I use it with an attenuator though at home, I’d really recommend one, then you can get the full range of tones and more compression with the volume at 3-4-5 and beyond - it’s glorious around 4. You’re right it’s very loud at 2, but doesn’t get that much louder above 3, the attenuator helps give more control. There’s actually a powerbrake on eBay at the moment with a sensible starting bid! 

Do you use the attenuator with the band, or just at home? I have a MiniMass (which I was thinking to get rid of) and a Jettenuator but I just didn't want to lug more kit around (I know, it's small). But maybe it would make a good master volume for band levels?

JMS96

Roland said:

3. In the Helix use an EQ to block everything below 125hz, so that you stay out of the bassist’s way. This might sound thin at home, but live you might need to block from even higher. 

4. Minimise and standardise the number of sounds you’re using, and minimise effect levels. The fewer permutations you have to manage the quicker you’ll get them sorted. For example, no more than four amp sounds: clean, edgy, crunchy, and full blown lead; one reverb setting at no more than 20%; one chorus; one wah etc. You can add variations, one at a time, once you’ve got a firm basis. 

5. Play fewer notes. Use partial chords rather than the full six, which will leave more space. Simplify fills, the more notes you cram the harder it is to follow what you’re playing, in the louder you want it to be.

These are really helpful. I actually have an EQ-200 on the board, two sides set pre and post Helix. I know the Helix (its a stomp) has EQs, but I wanted it to be to hand, I just haven't learned to dialled it it properly yet, but will definitely try this.

4. I suspected this. Good to know.

5. Genius, thank you.

Slash'N'burn

JMS96 said:

Slash'N'burn said:

I have the same amp as you with a 2x12 - you’re right it does cut through. I use it with an attenuator though at home, I’d really recommend one, then you can get the full range of tones and more compression with the volume at 3-4-5 and beyond - it’s glorious around 4. You’re right it’s very loud at 2, but doesn’t get that much louder above 3, the attenuator helps give more control. There’s actually a powerbrake on eBay at the moment with a sensible starting bid! 

Do you use the attenuator with the band, or just at home? I have a MiniMass (which I was thinking to get rid of) and a Jettenuator but I just didn't want to lug more kit around (I know, it's small). But maybe it would make a good master volume for band levels?

I’ve only just started in a band really so not had the chance to take the powerbrake out with me yet (or take the SV20) but yeah if you have a Minimass I’ve heard they are very good attenuators so will get the volume down without sacrificing tone. 

JMS96

Slash'N'burn said:

I’ve only just started in a band really so not had the chance to take the powerbrake out with me yet (or take the SV20) but yeah if you have a Minimass I’ve heard they are very good attenuators so will get the volume down without sacrificing tone. 

Maybe the Minimass would be better at band volumes. I find at home it's difficult to use at very low volumes (and the manual says not to attenuate to a whisper) - it's useful just to shave off some. At really low volumes I prefer the Jettenuator - which isn't reactive but at really low volumes I'm not sure purity of 'tone' really comes into it that much.

fastonebaz

Sound comes out the speakers in waves with peaks and troughs.   Standing right next to the speaker you're usually in a trough so the sound is quieter.  Stand about 10 feet in front and you'll hear it sounds much brighter and louder as the node opens to a peak.  Its quite interesting walking around with a wireless receiver heading the sound change. 

Neill

I'd second the use of a Telecaster, or a Strat, the reason you see most "pub" bands using Fenders is in small unmiked venues it's just easier to get a good sound as the single coils cut through better. 

Also endorse the warning about ear ringing - like a lot of folk on here I have tinnitus which I believe is partly a result of tolerating the after effects of loud music.  The drummer I used to play with has tinnitus and is deaf in one ear now.

In my experience it does take a while to get a really good live sound, but I agree with monquixote and Roland ie I would go back to basics and just try and get three good sounds which are in balance with the bass and drums.

Must admit I've never used an attenuator, there weren't a lot of these things around when I was playing but from what I hear I would love to have had one, I think it would have saved a lot of grief.

Keefy

fastonebaz said:

Sound comes out the speakers in waves with peaks and troughs.   Standing right next to the speaker you're usually in a trough so the sound is quieter.  Stand about 10 feet in front and you'll hear it sounds much brighter and louder as the node opens to a peak.  Its quite interesting walking around with a wireless receiver heading the sound change. 

Nope. Sound is a compression wave, and at any point there will be a series of peaks and troughs.

You don’t hear your amp as loud when you’re standing right next to it because your ears are way off axis from the speaker.

viz

FarleyUK said:

JMS96 said:

...

I don't think we're very quiet. Not got much to go on, but we have a bit of ringing ears after a couple of hours.

Best advice I can give you - get some attenuating ear plugs.

Seriously.

For your band mates. Then turn it up even louder. 

viz

Keefy said:

fastonebaz said:

Sound comes out the speakers in waves with peaks and troughs.   Standing right next to the speaker you're usually in a trough so the sound is quieter.  Stand about 10 feet in front and you'll hear it sounds much brighter and louder as the node opens to a peak.  Its quite interesting walking around with a wireless receiver heading the sound change. 

Nope. Sound is a compression wave, and at any point there will be a series of peaks and troughs.

You don’t hear your amp as loud when you’re standing right next to it because your ears are way off axis from the speaker.

Yep you get the alternating quiet and loud spots only when there are more than 1 speaker,  resulting in constructive / destructive interference. 

Hattigol

".....just use three drive pedals that I know will sound good".

No. Just use one. Get it set right and you'll sound way better.

And like the others said, get some earplugs - ringing in your ears really isn't a good thing.

mike257

I'd echo what everyone else has said - I'd massively simplify your setup with the Helix to a couple of basic sounds and get them right. 

Setting it up to sound great at home is not conducive to having it cut through a band mix. If you isolated sounds from great sounding albums, they'd be a lot thinner than you'd imagine - you get clarity and definition by leaving space for everything to be heard, so a big chunky sound that is awesome in your house will swamp the spaces in the frequency spectrum where you need to hear the rest of the band. They won't sound clear, and neither will you, which is why you're turning up and they're saying you're too loud.

High frequencies, where you'll get clarity in your own sound, are far more directional than low frequencies, so think about where your cab is and where it's aimed in relation to you. Angle it back so it's pointing up at you, even get a little bit further away from it - the best rehearsal setup I had was when I had my amp across the room firing at me - I heard it almost from an audience perspective so didn't overcompensate with too much high end in my tones, got the full frequency spectrum aimed at my ears instead of the back of my knees, and didn't have to crank it and drown out the band. 

One of the best things you can do is to rehearse as quietly as you can manage (within reason). Whilst it's super fun to make a load of raucous noise, you exacerbate all the problems you're talking about having, you fatigue your hearing really quickly, and you can't hear any detail in what you're all playing. If you get everyone to be quieter you lose some of that raw energy you feel, but you'll suddenly hear the detail in the tones and the performances and it'll become easier to see where you need to work on parts and tighten up. 

Finally, you absolutely HAVE TO get some ear protection sorted. When it goes, it isn't coming back. Standing in a small room playing loud music, with a drummer bashing away at cymbals in close proximity, will 100% cause you hearing damage and the sooner you protect yourself, the better. It takes a little adjustment to get used to it, but it'll protect your hearing long term, and also improve the clarity of what you hear when you're not battered by pure power and volume. 

slacker

My guessJMS96 said:

I've only played in a band for the last couple of years, despite playing guitar since I was a child. But I'm really struggling to get a consistently clear sound, and everyone's complaining that I'm too loud. I know this is a perennial issue, but I really need the collective wisdom of tFB to help me through this problem, which is consuming me, and give me some useful practical advice about 'cutting through'. I have many question that I thought about (and decided against) putting in different threads. Instead (with apologies for the length of this...) here are what I think are the key ones. BTW, we are a four piece covers band with just 1 guitar, bass and drums.

CHOICE OF GUITAR

I'm a total poser, so I've been playing my Ric 360 and more recently a Gibson 330. But yesterday I turned up with a tele, and everything seemed a lot easier even on the neck pickup. Is it just a fact that a tele is always going to work better/easier in a live band setting? Or do you just need to know how to dial in for any guitar?

HELIX SETTINGS

I'm set on using a Helix for effects, into an amp, and I have presets for every song. These are mostly set at home using guesswork and trial and error. So I have lots of different combination of pedals and snapshots. What I find is that on some days some songs just sound better than others. Am I going about this the wrong way?

Would it be easier to settle on specific effects/presets that work better for my set up and not worry too much about approximating the sound of the original song? - ie just use three drive pedals that I know will sound good with the guitar and amp and making the song fit those?

AMP

I'm using a Marshall SV20H into a 2x12.It sounds good and cuts through better than a Fender 68 CVR, I think. But it's really loud! I set it clean on 2 and everyone's complaining. How is that?!?

Any other advice gratefully received!

My guess is that you are possibly the cause of a volume war. I've been there and there are some easy fixes.

Listen to your drummer warm up. Most are not that loud. That's the level you are working at. If its too loud on its own the drum kit is a problem and tactful comments are required.

Assuming that you can set your amp at a decent volume aim it at your head. Do not boost the bass. Shave off the bass frequencies slightly and boost the mids a bit.

Now listen to the bass. It needs to fit under your guitar in frequencies but match it in volume. Get the bassist to aim his amp at his head.

Listen to the band you need to hear everything not just your guitar. Now set overdrives with less gain than normal. You want a slight boost in volume and maybe mids.

All you need is a decent overdrive and a reverb. Everything else is a special effect. Use sparingingly.

Playing in a band means listening to others. With the right others it can be a joy. 

I did a band teaching thing years ago and the drummer was a student. We had to mic her up and put her through the monitors. Best drummer ever to work with.