Limiters on master bus

domforr

Hi all, I have a query about something that's bothered me for a while and I can't really get my head around it. Once I've completed a mix of a track and want to apply some limiting on the master bus I can't seem to get the limiter to work as I'd expect it to - i.e. clipping any remaining peaks and bringing up the overall level. When I apply the limiter and set it so that it's actually doing some gain reduction it starts to distort - I can hear this and also see it visually on my Audient ID14 mix levels as well (going into the red). 

The mix is set to be no louder than -6 db so there's plenty of headroom. I've used a couple of compressors and then added the limiter at the end so it's not being overworked. 

I've tried reducing some of the low end on the track and that helped a little, but the problem remains.

I'm not interested in blasting out loudness but I would like to use the limiter to be working effectively.

To my ears the track sounds good, although I am mainly using good headphones to mix as my room is untreated. I try to listen through speakers and other devices as well to check balances. 

Any ideas?

octatonic

What settings do you have on the limiter?
Make a screen capture video, or record a video with your phone.

What limiter are you using?

domforr

I'm using the fab filter limiter and have tried a few others as well (T-racks, Izotope). 

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Danny1969

It's hard to say but in general what you describe comes form expecting too much from a limiter on the master bus. I find I have to do a lot of work in terms of dynamics on the multitrack before the limiter acts in a smooth transparent way. 
If the actual individual tracks have too much dynamics then using a limiter to really even things out will add distortion .... the trick is to get the various parts, especially kick, snr and bass guitar very even in dynamics. This means small rides of automation as well as compression generally for me.  

andy_k

Isn't this really only a good option with high end outboard limiters?, for the added character.
I find FF stuff very clinical sounding, good for surgery, but not sure I would use it on a master session.
Loudness wars over etc etc.

domforr

It doesn't seem to be specific to FF limiter though. Every one I've tried has had the same issue, so I suspect as Danny1969 says it's more to do with the mix. It's tricky though as the mix sounds good to me and I don't want to just squash the hell out of everything. I've applied compression throughout, but I tend towards just a hint rather than heavy squashing, which I generally don't like sonically. I've sent previous mixes to professional mastering engineers and they came back sounding great, so I don't think there's major issues (hopefully). 

Cirrus

How much gain reduction are you actually aiming for, and how loud is your final mix in the bits that are distorting (in lufs, or rms or whatever)? And how often is it working? is it like, just shaving off snare hits, or is it constantly driving into gain reduction from the sustained sounds too?

domforr

It's just cutting off the odd snare hit and maybe bass drum - so about once every 2-4 seconds maybe? The gain reduction is probably about minus 2-3 db at most. I'm really not trying to push it. I'll have to check the volume of the bits that are distorting. I don't really understand the difference between lufs, rms to be honest.

spark240

I stick a stock Studio One limiter in the Master Fader Post and seems to do the trick 

stratman3142

domforr said:

...When I apply the limiter and set it so that it's actually doing some gain reduction it starts to distort - I can hear this and also see it visually on my Audient ID14 mix levels as well (going into the red). 

The mix is set to be no louder than -6 db so there's plenty of headroom....

Just to clarify. When the Audient interface shows levels going into the red, does the level on your DAW Master track go into the red (i.e. above 0dB) or not?

The level shown on my interface matches the level shown on my DAW Master track.

Legionreturns

Where are you putting it on the master bus? 

domforr

Yes, they both clip although not necessarily at the same time. I have the limiter set to -1 db and the FreeG sonalksis meter says that it's staying at this level. I also have the Mastering your Mix Levels plugin and that says it's not clipping either. Very confusing. Meters and visual aides aside, my ears are hearing some distortion through the headphones. It's faint but it's definitely there

tekbow

This may be of some assistance?

It's for reaper, granted, but assuming the principles could be applied?

domforr

Legionreturns said:

Where are you putting it on the master bus? 

Very last thing in the chain, apart from the metering plugins and a waves headphone studio emulator. 

domforr

tekbow said:

This may be of some assistance?

It's for reaper, granted, but assuming the principles could be applied?

Thanks, that's interesting but specifically for spotify, youtube etc I think? 

andy_k

It is tempting to try mastering your own stuff, I mean how hard can it be??
But seriously, if it sounds good in the mix, I would treat the mastering as a separate process to be carried out under special circumstances. All the streaming sites use different LUFS levels anyway, better to try to keep the mix as dynamic as possible and allow someone with magic ears and the perfect environment to do their magic on your mix, leaving them with some room to manoeuvre and maybe give them stems too.
It is just as useful to run the track through something like Izotope, as an experiment to see what the algorithm does to it, but when it comes to publishing, if the track is too loud it will be turned down, which completely ruins the effect of the few critical Db you have squeezed from your own limited master. 
I wouldn't hesitate to use FF limiter on drum bus, or even Mixbus, but very sparingly, and still leaving some headroom for mastering.

domforr

Yes, I agree. I'm not really wanting to do this as a final master, but I know from experience that if you send stuff out to people and it's too quiet the response is generally negative. So I will definitely remove all of the processing in the mix bus before sending for proper mastering, but I would still like to be able to do an approximate, with good levels etc. I'd also like to understand why I can't use the limiter properly :-)

octatonic

Danny1969 said:

It's hard to say but in general what you describe comes form expecting too much from a limiter on the master bus. I find I have to do a lot of work in terms of dynamics on the multitrack before the limiter acts in a smooth transparent way. 
If the actual individual tracks have too much dynamics then using a limiter to really even things out will add distortion .... the trick is to get the various parts, especially kick, snr and bass guitar very even in dynamics. This means small rides of automation as well as compression generally for me.  

This.

If you can hear the limiter really working then it probably isn't a great mix.
I think of master bus limiting in the way I think of ABS in a car.
You don't want it triggering all the time, because it means you are driving like a twat (mixing poorly).

I also mix into master bus compression and limiting, even though I use a mastering engineer for a final mix.
-6dB is possibly a bit too quiet

Try mixing to -3dB, with a limiter on the master, a touch of EQ maybe a compressor for 1-2db of gain reduction max.
I've sent mixes done this way to Metropolis for mastering and never had anything come back with 'too hot, please do again' pinned to it.

I mix of buses, meaning everything gets grouped together, either by instrument type (all guitars, drums, basses, keys, vocals on their own buses) or by pitch region (google 'brauerize').
I tend to use minimal compression and EQ on the individual tracks, maybe a bit of filtering, minimal compression.
The busses get compressed and EQ'ed if needed and then summed together on the master with a minimal compression.

This isn't the only way of course.

stratman3142

domforr said:

Yes, they both clip although not necessarily at the same time. I have the limiter set to -1 db and the FreeG sonalksis meter says that it's staying at this level. I also have the Mastering your Mix Levels plugin and that says it's not clipping either....

domforr said:

Legionreturns said:

Where are you putting it on the master bus? 

Very last thing in the chain, apart from the metering plugins and a waves headphone studio emulator. 

I'm still curious why you get clipping after the master limiter, given that you have the metering plugins that suggest it's not clipping.

I'm not familiar with the Waves headphone studio emulator. I assume it's colouring the audio to emulate a studio sound. Is it possible that it's boosting the master level after the master limiter and metering plugins, resulting levels above 0dB? Do you get the same issue with it bypassed?

tekbow

domforr said:

tekbow said:

This may be of some assistance?

It's for reaper, granted, but assuming the principles could be applied?

Thanks, that's interesting but specifically for spotify, youtube etc I think? 

Kind of, but only in the sense that they require a specific level. You could take the principles and apply it to whatever you like.

domforr

stratman3142 said:

domforr said:

Yes, they both clip although not necessarily at the same time. I have the limiter set to -1 db and the FreeG sonalksis meter says that it's staying at this level. I also have the Mastering your Mix Levels plugin and that says it's not clipping either....

domforr said:

Legionreturns said:

Where are you putting it on the master bus? 

Very last thing in the chain, apart from the metering plugins and a waves headphone studio emulator. 

I'm still curious why you get clipping after the master limiter, given that you have the metering plugins that suggest it's not clipping.

I'm not familiar with the Waves headphone studio emulator. I assume it's colouring the audio to emulate a studio sound. Is it possible that it's boosting the master level after the master limiter and metering plugins, resulting levels above 0dB? Do you get the same issue with it bypassed?

Yes, I don't understand this either. I don't think the waves plugin is adding anything and it makes no difference if it's bypassed.  Isn't the point of a limiter set at -1 (or whatever) that nothing gets through that so it can't clip?