Study on Vegetarian/Vegan diets & COVID

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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 14249
    I think the propaganda around meat production is roughly the same quality of propaganda around anti-abortion activism.

    IE: If you're anti-meat eating, but pro-abortion... that makes zero sense to me.

    I'm pro both btw.

    I'm not sure I follow your logic here.
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  • jonnyburgojonnyburgo Frets: 9549
    Cols said:
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    That’s fundamentally not relevant to the matter at hand, and actually runs the risk of detracting from the core message of the study.

    I’m going to make a wild guess here that you’re vegetarian or vegan, and would like other people to be so as well.  The study conclusion that a plant-based diet carries a lower risk of serious illness from COVID makes that a logic-driven argument.  If you accept the study conclusion, it means that not switching to the veggie option carries an acceptance of greater personal risk.

    Diverting off into a “Meat is Murder” direction makes it an emotional argument, to which it’s much easier to reply “No it isn’t”, “Don’t believe you” or “Don’t care, I’m off to make myself a bacon sandwich”.
    And thats why I apologisd for what was a hijack. It would be great if we were all vegan or veggie but Im not daft enough to think that would ever happen.
    "OUR TOSSPOT"
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  • WiresDreamDisastersWiresDreamDisasters Frets: 16505
    edited June 9
    I think the propaganda around meat production is roughly the same quality of propaganda around anti-abortion activism.

    IE: If you're anti-meat eating, but pro-abortion... that makes zero sense to me.

    I'm pro both btw.

    I'm not sure I follow your logic here.
    Keep animals alive regardless of human need because they're cute.
    Keep babies alive regardless of human need because they're cute.

    It's pretty tasty straw this.


    Both camps show the most horrific photos and video - usually fake - to strengthen their case.

    They're actually remarkably similar.
    They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.
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  • Nick13Nick13 Frets: 667
    I think the propaganda around meat production is roughly the same quality of propaganda around anti-abortion activism.

    IE: If you're anti-meat eating, but pro-abortion... that makes zero sense to me.

    I'm pro both btw.

    I'm not sure I follow your logic here.
    Keep animals alive regardless of human need because they're cute.
    Keep babies alive regardless of human need because they're cute.

    It's pretty tasty straw this.


    Both camps show the most horrific photos and video - usually fake - to strengthen their case.

    They're actually remarkably similar.

    Removal of human need and therefor  humans is the only way to solve all problems to do with the food production industry.  Anyone got Thanos' number?
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  • thebreezethebreeze Frets: 1998
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."

    That is absolutely untrue.  Not sure what a "facts fight" is and where it really gets one in the end anyway.  Feelings are are an extremely important aspect of being human and are highly valuable avenues of communication both internally and person to person.  Sadly, we're discouraged from accessing them and using them constructively, creatively and honestly.  Shutting them down completely and prohibiting any notion of them diminishes the discussion and also our sense of being human.  There's balance to be had of course and facts and objectivity are vitally important - in some situations obviously more so, in others not.  People can be scared of feelings and find them hard to understand sometimes but I think that gets worse as we're encouraged "not to go there" and that they have no place in a discussion of this kind.

    @WiresDreamDisasters take it away............
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 11498
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."

    That is absolutely untrue.  Not sure what a "facts fight" is and where it really gets one in the end anyway.  Feelings are are an extremely important aspect of being human and are highly valuable avenues of communication both internally and person to person.  Sadly, we're discouraged from accessing them and using them constructively, creatively and honestly.  Shutting them down completely and prohibiting any notion of them diminishes the discussion and also our sense of being human.  There's balance to be had of course and facts and objectivity are vitally important - in some situations obviously more so, in others not.  People can be scared of feelings and find them hard to understand sometimes but I think that gets worse as we're encouraged "not to go there" and that they have no place in a discussion of this kind.

    @WiresDreamDisasters take it away............
    you're absolutely right, what is most important when deciding whether certain dietary regimes are better at combatting covid 19 we must put our feelings at the forefront. Facts only come into it when everyone's feelings are catered for...

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • thebreezethebreeze Frets: 1998
    VimFuego said:
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."

    That is absolutely untrue.  Not sure what a "facts fight" is and where it really gets one in the end anyway.  Feelings are are an extremely important aspect of being human and are highly valuable avenues of communication both internally and person to person.  Sadly, we're discouraged from accessing them and using them constructively, creatively and honestly.  Shutting them down completely and prohibiting any notion of them diminishes the discussion and also our sense of being human.  There's balance to be had of course and facts and objectivity are vitally important - in some situations obviously more so, in others not.  People can be scared of feelings and find them hard to understand sometimes but I think that gets worse as we're encouraged "not to go there" and that they have no place in a discussion of this kind.

    @WiresDreamDisasters take it away............
    you're absolutely right, what is most important when deciding whether certain dietary regimes are better at combatting covid 19 we must put our feelings at the forefront. Facts only come into it when everyone's feelings are catered for...
    Facts only come into it when the bacon sarnies have been catered for.

    Your summary isn't what I'm saying at all.  Just it's a nonsense (and extremely limiting) to say "never, ever, bring feelings to a (facts fight)/discussion".  We're not robots/computers (yet).
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 11498
    edited June 10
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."

    That is absolutely untrue.  Not sure what a "facts fight" is and where it really gets one in the end anyway.  Feelings are are an extremely important aspect of being human and are highly valuable avenues of communication both internally and person to person.  Sadly, we're discouraged from accessing them and using them constructively, creatively and honestly.  Shutting them down completely and prohibiting any notion of them diminishes the discussion and also our sense of being human.  There's balance to be had of course and facts and objectivity are vitally important - in some situations obviously more so, in others not.  People can be scared of feelings and find them hard to understand sometimes but I think that gets worse as we're encouraged "not to go there" and that they have no place in a discussion of this kind.

    @WiresDreamDisasters take it away............
    you're absolutely right, what is most important when deciding whether certain dietary regimes are better at combatting covid 19 we must put our feelings at the forefront. Facts only come into it when everyone's feelings are catered for...
    Facts only come into it when the bacon sarnies have been catered for.

    Your summary isn't what I'm saying at all.  Just it's a nonsense (and extremely limiting) to say "never, ever, bring feelings to a (facts fight)/discussion".  We're not robots/computers (yet).
    this is a discussion about whether vegetarian diets are better at combatting covid, it's a facts fight, my initial comment was wholly and completely only about that. You have created this fiction, this strawman, in order to distract away from that. Your comment has no relevance to my initial comment as you are essentially commenting about something that was never said.
     

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • thebreezethebreeze Frets: 1998
    VimFuego said:
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."

    That is absolutely untrue.  Not sure what a "facts fight" is and where it really gets one in the end anyway.  Feelings are are an extremely important aspect of being human and are highly valuable avenues of communication both internally and person to person.  Sadly, we're discouraged from accessing them and using them constructively, creatively and honestly.  Shutting them down completely and prohibiting any notion of them diminishes the discussion and also our sense of being human.  There's balance to be had of course and facts and objectivity are vitally important - in some situations obviously more so, in others not.  People can be scared of feelings and find them hard to understand sometimes but I think that gets worse as we're encouraged "not to go there" and that they have no place in a discussion of this kind.

    @WiresDreamDisasters take it away............
    you're absolutely right, what is most important when deciding whether certain dietary regimes are better at combatting covid 19 we must put our feelings at the forefront. Facts only come into it when everyone's feelings are catered for...
    Facts only come into it when the bacon sarnies have been catered for.

    Your summary isn't what I'm saying at all.  Just it's a nonsense (and extremely limiting) to say "never, ever, bring feelings to a (facts fight)/discussion".  We're not robots/computers (yet).
    this is a discussion about whether vegetarian diets are better at combatting covid, it's a facts fight. Feelings are completely useless in a facts fight. What feelings could possibly have any use here.
    Feelings are never "completely useless" in any context.  The thing I object to is a kind cultural movement which suggests that they are.  Your approach seems to be encouraging that.  It's balance.  Facts are obviously going to be the over-riding consideration and will be given due importance in a discussion like this.  Telling people to "never, ever" and feelings are "completely useless" is, as I've said, limiting, diminishing and shutting down possibility. 
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 11498
    lol OK, whatever, if it makes you happy.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • thebreezethebreeze Frets: 1998
    VimFuego said:
    lol OK, whatever, if it makes you happy.
    Embracing my feelings?  You're a quick learner.  :)
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  • thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."

    That is absolutely untrue.  Not sure what a "facts fight" is and where it really gets one in the end anyway.  Feelings are are an extremely important aspect of being human and are highly valuable avenues of communication both internally and person to person.  Sadly, we're discouraged from accessing them and using them constructively, creatively and honestly.  Shutting them down completely and prohibiting any notion of them diminishes the discussion and also our sense of being human.  There's balance to be had of course and facts and objectivity are vitally important - in some situations obviously more so, in others not.  People can be scared of feelings and find them hard to understand sometimes but I think that gets worse as we're encouraged "not to go there" and that they have no place in a discussion of this kind.

    @WiresDreamDisasters take it away............
    How are you going to navigate the world if all you're running on is feelings that change like the wind??
    They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.
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  • thebreezethebreeze Frets: 1998
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."

    That is absolutely untrue.  Not sure what a "facts fight" is and where it really gets one in the end anyway.  Feelings are are an extremely important aspect of being human and are highly valuable avenues of communication both internally and person to person.  Sadly, we're discouraged from accessing them and using them constructively, creatively and honestly.  Shutting them down completely and prohibiting any notion of them diminishes the discussion and also our sense of being human.  There's balance to be had of course and facts and objectivity are vitally important - in some situations obviously more so, in others not.  People can be scared of feelings and find them hard to understand sometimes but I think that gets worse as we're encouraged "not to go there" and that they have no place in a discussion of this kind.

    @WiresDreamDisasters take it away............
    How are you going to navigate the world if all you're running on is feelings that change like the wind??
    It's not all - facts and objectivity are really important, but I'd turn it round and say how are you going to navigate the world without feelings??

    Left brain/right brain - too much of either becomes problematic.
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  • thebreeze said:
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."

    That is absolutely untrue.  Not sure what a "facts fight" is and where it really gets one in the end anyway.  Feelings are are an extremely important aspect of being human and are highly valuable avenues of communication both internally and person to person.  Sadly, we're discouraged from accessing them and using them constructively, creatively and honestly.  Shutting them down completely and prohibiting any notion of them diminishes the discussion and also our sense of being human.  There's balance to be had of course and facts and objectivity are vitally important - in some situations obviously more so, in others not.  People can be scared of feelings and find them hard to understand sometimes but I think that gets worse as we're encouraged "not to go there" and that they have no place in a discussion of this kind.

    @WiresDreamDisasters take it away............
    How are you going to navigate the world if all you're running on is feelings that change like the wind??
    It's not all - facts and objectivity are really important, but I'd turn it round and say how are you going to navigate the world without feelings??

    Left brain/right brain - too much of either becomes problematic.
    Let's jump back a bit.

    What's your overall point with this?
    They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.
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  • thebreezethebreeze Frets: 1998
    thebreeze said:
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."

    That is absolutely untrue.  Not sure what a "facts fight" is and where it really gets one in the end anyway.  Feelings are are an extremely important aspect of being human and are highly valuable avenues of communication both internally and person to person.  Sadly, we're discouraged from accessing them and using them constructively, creatively and honestly.  Shutting them down completely and prohibiting any notion of them diminishes the discussion and also our sense of being human.  There's balance to be had of course and facts and objectivity are vitally important - in some situations obviously more so, in others not.  People can be scared of feelings and find them hard to understand sometimes but I think that gets worse as we're encouraged "not to go there" and that they have no place in a discussion of this kind.

    @WiresDreamDisasters take it away............
    How are you going to navigate the world if all you're running on is feelings that change like the wind??
    It's not all - facts and objectivity are really important, but I'd turn it round and say how are you going to navigate the world without feelings??

    Left brain/right brain - too much of either becomes problematic.
    Let's jump back a bit.

    What's your overall point with this?
    Don't put a blanket prohibition on feelings in any discussion, they might be useful.
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  • thebreeze said:
    thebreeze said:
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."

    That is absolutely untrue.  Not sure what a "facts fight" is and where it really gets one in the end anyway.  Feelings are are an extremely important aspect of being human and are highly valuable avenues of communication both internally and person to person.  Sadly, we're discouraged from accessing them and using them constructively, creatively and honestly.  Shutting them down completely and prohibiting any notion of them diminishes the discussion and also our sense of being human.  There's balance to be had of course and facts and objectivity are vitally important - in some situations obviously more so, in others not.  People can be scared of feelings and find them hard to understand sometimes but I think that gets worse as we're encouraged "not to go there" and that they have no place in a discussion of this kind.

    @WiresDreamDisasters take it away............
    How are you going to navigate the world if all you're running on is feelings that change like the wind??
    It's not all - facts and objectivity are really important, but I'd turn it round and say how are you going to navigate the world without feelings??

    Left brain/right brain - too much of either becomes problematic.
    Let's jump back a bit.

    What's your overall point with this?
    Don't put a blanket prohibition on feelings in any discussion, they might be useful.
    Okay fine.

    But how can feelings be useful when discussing a scientific study and it's rigorousness (or lack of) ?
    They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 11498
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    lol OK, whatever, if it makes you happy.
    Embracing my feelings?  You're a quick learner.  :)
    if it helps you to have a "win", then sure, help yourself. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • thebreezethebreeze Frets: 1998
    thebreeze said:
    thebreeze said:
    thebreeze said:
    VimFuego said:
    Eating meat is cruel. That either hits you in the feels or it doesnt. 
    and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight. 
    Thats true. However, saying that the meat industry is cruel is fact. Its an uncomfortable one for most but it is fact. 

    Anyhoo apologies for the hijack. Carry on.
    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."

    That is absolutely untrue.  Not sure what a "facts fight" is and where it really gets one in the end anyway.  Feelings are are an extremely important aspect of being human and are highly valuable avenues of communication both internally and person to person.  Sadly, we're discouraged from accessing them and using them constructively, creatively and honestly.  Shutting them down completely and prohibiting any notion of them diminishes the discussion and also our sense of being human.  There's balance to be had of course and facts and objectivity are vitally important - in some situations obviously more so, in others not.  People can be scared of feelings and find them hard to understand sometimes but I think that gets worse as we're encouraged "not to go there" and that they have no place in a discussion of this kind.

    @WiresDreamDisasters take it away............
    How are you going to navigate the world if all you're running on is feelings that change like the wind??
    It's not all - facts and objectivity are really important, but I'd turn it round and say how are you going to navigate the world without feelings??

    Left brain/right brain - too much of either becomes problematic.
    Let's jump back a bit.

    What's your overall point with this?
    Don't put a blanket prohibition on feelings in any discussion, they might be useful.
    Okay fine.

    But how can feelings be useful when discussing a scientific study and it's rigorousness (or lack of) ?
    I guess they can remind us what the studies might be for, why they are being carried out or what kind of impacts they might have etc.?  I just felt jonnyburgo's comment was a useful contribution to the discussion.  It contextualises a discussion about papers and facts in a different light - meat industry/veganism/vegetarianism aren't just abstract words in a paper.

    "and this is why it's important to never, ever, bring feelings to a facts fight."  I just think that statement is wrong (even potentially dangerous) for the reasons I've expressed.  It's not a big deal but becomes a big deal because the very idea that someone might suggest feeling something has to be shut down so strongly.
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 11498
    edited June 10
    EDIT, meh, can't be arsed. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • ColsCols Frets: 3970
    I feel that it would be very nice not to end up in hospital with COVID.  Unless the nurses are absolute stunners.

    There’s your relevant feeling, right there.
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