Callaham only option / Improving trem action threads on Strat talk, love a good trem discussion!

andypwudtone

thank you Wez as you have mentioned, it isn't unreasonable to ask which trems he has used , so @sweepy do you have any experience ( ie played a guitar with one fitted ) of a Wudtone CP Holy Grail or CPVT trem?

ps how do you paraphrase 

"most others are pretty much snake oil and fashion" 

into 

"doesn't  see any benefit in other things" , without re writing? 

GuitarMonkey

Can I invoke Rule 1 here please?

Lixarto

GuitarMonkey said:

Can I invoke Rule 1 here please?

I'm invoking the rule "Don't buy".

Majorscale

I think we've just witnessed a marketing car crash...

mid57

Majorscale said:

I think we've just witnessed a marketing car crash...

I agree and its nothing to do with product its all to do with attitude an own goal in my opinion

dindude

What with Vertex, it must be the season for small business suicide

WezV

andypwudtone said:

ps how do you paraphrase 

"most others are pretty much snake oil and fashion" 

into 

"doesn't  see any benefit in other things" , without re writing? 

by leaving both the original post and my paraphrased version for all to read and make their own decision.   

andypwudtone

dindude said:

What with Vertex, it must be the season for small business suicide

here is what the last tfb heated discussion / marketing car crash ended in http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/186738 . 

so from experience I would engage in a heated discussion that prevents anyone leaving with the impression that our product fits into a "most others are snake oil category" any day. 

Doing nothing would be small business suicide.  

The last forum member who called our products a fraud had their credibility damaged when it became clear they had no experience of the product plus they were lazy having done zero research. Indeed their small guitar shop seems to have closed! 

I'm sorry but every time value comes from challenging the the same old "snake oil, fashion nazi" prejudices. Those are undermining your opportunities at many levels, not mine. 

As @sweepy hasn't shown the courtesy to answer the simple question ( although he was honest enough to state they "may indeed be the Bees knees" ), I think it is safe to say he has not actually had any experience playing a guitar fitted with a Wudtone CP Holy Grail or CPVT bridge nor is he ever likely to. 

kind regards

sweepy

I wasn't going to reply as I thought the thread didn't need any more oxygen , I have fitted and used Callaham Gotoh Wilkinson Fender PRS etc in the past and indeed still do, I agree I have not fitted or indeed used one of your trems, In my secondary post I did in no way single out your product as "snake oil"and indeed to say so would have been plainly silly, I was merely observing that many replacement or "improved" trems are however nicely engineered/finished etc are overpriced and rarely provide a "better bang per buck" than the original Fender unit or a well designed functional unit such as the Wilkinson

frankus

This kinda reminds me of the thread critiquing Guthrie Govan's first album, it carried on and on and on till Paul Cornford wrecked it all by pointing out the album hadn't been finished.

impmann

OK - some first hand, here...

I was pretty scathing of Andy's trem in his original FB discussion about it. I admit that - like sweepy, I've been a tech for many years and have seen many "uprated" trems come and go, none of them being *that* big a deal. The exception being the Callaham unit. I have owned a few Strats that I have fitted these to and I believe that they offer a great improvement over the Fender (and other brand) trems. Yes, they are costly but if you shop around you can get them for a good price - that involves buying outside of the UK...

I took up Andy's challenge and fitted a Wudtone CPT unit to the Mother Earth strat (ex Matt Deighton). Costs wise, if you buy *everything* from Wudtone (arm, block etc) it does start getting pricey - its still a little cheaper than the Callaham, but realistically they are within the same ball park (from the websites - CPT comes in at £109 +VAT + Shipping, the Callaham is $138  - £81.90 - plus import, shipping and VAT). I'm sure the Wudtone site used to give the option of saddles but I couldn't find it this time - perhaps that has changed.

Fitting it was dead easy and once set up, with the strings stretched in the return to pitch is/was staggering. It *does* feel smoother in operation than the other trems and the tone is much improved on what what fitted previously to that guitar (to be fair, it was a shit Tokai trem with a pot metal block). 

I *would* recommend one to anyone, they are superb trems. I'm not replacing the Callaham in my blue strat with one, though - I did consider it - but I can't justify the expense to replace that great trem with one of Andy's. Plus both of my Strats are covered in a layer of dust... I just don't play them as much as I used to.

Andy is massively passionate about this product, and he has invested a lot of time, money and effort into it. As a result, he can be somewhat "forthright" about it in his responses - having taken things offline with him in the past and had some sensible discussions with him, he's actually a very reasonable guy. I think some of the responses above could be worded a little differently and perhaps a little less emotively (on all sides). I have no affiliation to Andy or Callaham for that matter - I'm just trying to put forward a non-biased, consumer's view.

If anyone is local-ish to Northants, I'm more than happy for anyone to give Mother Earth or my Blue Strat a bit of a strum to see what the fuss is about. :-)

andypwudtone

hi impmann, thank you for this.

Just one correction, if I may , the CP VT version (complete bridge assembly, .5 mm shim, bearing screws, 1018 cold steel, nylon bushed block, 5mm stainless arm, claw , springs screws , (but not including saddles) 

starts at £98.58 including UK shipping and there is NO VAT to add at the moment. Plate only ( fits Callaham block saddles) starts at £29.99.

We have incorporated a 2nd company and so splitting, retail , business to business has helped avoid having to add it for a bit longer.

Saddles are not shown as an option at the mo, Wudtone branded saddles are coming in the next month or two.  

kind regards 

impmann

Cool - thanks for that Andy. I took the prices from your website for the CPT (now called the Holy Grail) - which is what I have and what I am comparing above. £51.80 for the tremolo bridge and £57.39 for the block, arm etc.

Your site does say "Prices shown do not include any applicable VAT" so perhaps you need to update that, mate.

:-)

dindude

andypwudtone;312444" said:

dindude said:

What with Vertex, it must be the season for small business suicide





here is what the last tfb heated discussion / marketing car crash ended in http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/186738 . so from experience I would engage in a heated discussion that prevents anyone leaving with the impression that our product fits into a "most others are snake oil category" any day. 

Doing nothing would be small business suicide.  

The last forum member who called our products a fraud had their credibility damaged when it became clear they had no experience of the product plus they were lazy having done zero research. Indeed their small guitar shop seems to have closed! 

I'm sorry but every time value comes from challenging the the same old "snake oil, fashion nazi" prejudices. Those are undermining your opportunities at many levels, not mine. 

As @sweepy hasn't shown the courtesy to answer the simple question ( although he was honest enough to state they "may indeed be the Bees knees" ), I think it is safe to say he has not actually had any experience playing a guitar fitted with a Wudtone CP Holy Grail or CPVT bridge nor is he ever likely to. 

kind regards

Wasn't making an assumption about your product being snake oil. I think it looks pretty good. The parallel with Vertex was more around that I didn't think you handled it very well at all from a response point of view.

I could very easily see through the flippant comment from sweepy that wound you up so much (and if you think others couldn't either then that on its own is a little insulting) and it didn't put me off your product at all. This forum has plenty of people who dont buy into all the "final 10%" stuff, and I respect that, but I'm not one of them.

However, your defensiveness and aggressive stance did put me off somewhat. So in trying to convince someone who will likely never be a customer of yours, you alienated a genuine potential customer. I found it very strange, and that was my parallel with Vertex, who's response also seemed to alienate rather the resolve.

Anyway, don't want to get drawn into this so it's my last word on the subject.

andypwudtone

impmann said:

Cool - thanks for that Andy. I took the prices from your website for the CPT (now called the Holy Grail) - which is what I have and what I am comparing above. £51.80 for the tremolo bridge and £57.39 for the block, arm etc.

Your site does say "Prices shown do not include any applicable VAT" so perhaps you need to update that, mate.

:-)

no worries, we do need the applicable vat bit to keep distributors in other countries happy ( because folks do compare prices and distributors may well need to add VAT depending on their status). 

However no VAT is applicable for UK shipments at this time. kind regards

andypwudtone

dindude said:

I could very easily see through the flippant comment from sweepy that wound you up so much (and if you think others couldn't either then that on its own is a little insulting) and it didn't put me off your product at all. This forum has plenty of people who dont buy into all the "final 10%" stuff, and I respect that, but I'm not one of them.

However, your defensiveness and aggressive stance did put me off somewhat. So in trying to convince someone who will likely never be a customer of yours, you alienated a genuine potential customer. I found it very strange, and that was my parallel with Vertex, who's response also seemed to alienate rather the resolve.

I welcome folks expressing their own personal preferences although I happen to think that the kind of "most others are snake oil" final 10% prejudice isn't helpful.

What you have seen get my juices flowing is folks who throw out such prejudice which as far as I'm concerned infers our product is in this snake oil club.

I have a right to defend that ( apologies if that means I have to be defensive) as I certainly don't want to take the risk of anyone leaving with a perception our product is snake oil.

Anyone who has been through a patent process will know you don't get granted a patent with just snake oil. You have to convince intellectual property experts that your product has novel features and it is in fact an inventive step.

Drawings help, but it gets wordy and technical to do. It remains a bit of a marketing issue for us.

Here is a relatively concise summary.

The 1st gen plates,( as per the original Leo Fender patent)  with a flat top surface only pivot by loosening the fixings (this allows the plate to slide up and down the fixings). This type of plate provides a desirable tone but causes tuning to be unstable.

2nd gen plates ( e.g. as per 70 patent , eg Fender 2 post, PRS grooved screw, and Ernie Ball Luke) use indentations in the fixings ( 2 or 6)  so 'float' above the guitar body. Stable but the tone generated by guitars using these bridge plates is considered to be inferior to the vintage plates.

The Wudtone (Patent GB1314545.3) overcomes the problems of the two types of plate described above. It provides stable operation and a desirable tone through the use of: recesses formed around the fixings on the top side of the bridge plate; an arc on the underside of the bridge plate to ensure constant contact with the guitar body.

If anyone here can re-write the above in a more concise, easier to understand format that :

doesn't piss of Leo Fender fans

doesn't piss of Jeff Beck or any two post bridge fans

that even sweepy would bother to read / understand

and mentions the benefits of the .5mm shim, materials used

I will give happily give them a Holy Grail version of our bridge to enjoy. It is a serious offer.

By all means PM me if you fancy taking up the challenge.

Also coming back to  @JMP220478 Uk based guitarists are very empirical ( a good thing)  and so want to try before they buy. OK but it is an expensive cost of sale issue so instead we  offer a total delightation guarantee. i.e. If you are not absolutely delighted send it back for a full refund. Having shipped over 600 bridges all over the world the only ones returned are a couple of Vintage to Hybrid for narrower string spacing.   

kind regards 

JMP220478

@andypwudtone
Hi Andy - as stated in my post - happy to demo to give feedback on product but I'm not currently in market for a full upgrade atm - so buying to try / demo n then return etc on basis of being less than satisfied rather defeats purpose .,
I appreciate challenge of getting your product out in market , and changing preconceived ideas etc - I wonder if some strategic partnering with some of the other UK component / builders - could build a forum guitar - oil city pus / wudtone bridge / etcetera - and it could do the rounds of trusted forum members ( some sort of deposit to cover damage / occasional setup ) - maybe forum fathers could support this or annual subscription to cover this sort of thing ?

Anyways back to my needs - as mentioned - looking for a steel block to replace zinc alloy? unit in my classic player 60 .. I haven't checked your site out as yet but please point me in correct direction ..

Cheers Phil

JMP220478

Ps - just checked out your site and had no idea you had such an extensive range of product so please filter my comments accordingly .
Still need a block though :-) and happy to review and post here ..

andypwudtone

JMP220478 said:

Ps - just checked out your site and had no idea you had such an extensive range of product so please filter my comments accordingly .
Still need a block though :-) and happy to review and post here ..

cool, yes we got blocks, so next steps, why not email me  mail@wudtone.com and we can sort, I'm a bit tipsy at the moment but tomorrow possibly more able , rock'n'rolll

JMP220478

Mailed :-)